#jython IRC Log


IRC Log for 2016-02-02

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[14:41] <jimbaker> we plan to be putting out the beta 3 this week, with fwierzbicki1 releasing a soft beta 3 later today
[14:41] <jimbaker> assuming everything is good, i expect we will finalize that beta 24 hours later
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[22:36] * FunkyELF (~FunkyELF@cpe-172-72-165-16.carolina.res.rr.com) has joined #jython
[22:37] <FunkyELF> What is Jython's main competitor? There are other ways to interface CPython and Java right?
[22:38] <agronholm> FunkyELF: there's py4j and jpype but neither provides the kind of tight integration needed for running python code on java web containers
[22:39] <FunkyELF> we have a CPython project (with boost bindings to in house C++ library, and SIP bindings to Qt, etc). There is a Java library we'd like to leverage... wondering if this can be done in-process or not.
[22:40] <agronholm> no
[22:40] <FunkyELF> if it's out of process and we're going to do some kind of RPC, then we'd just do that right in Java, no need for Python
[22:40] <agronholm> py4j gives you what you want
[22:40] <agronholm> hm?
[22:40] <agronholm> I see
[22:41] <agronholm> wait, I don't
[22:41] <agronholm> how is there no need for CPython if you have a CPython project?
[22:42] <FunkyELF> agronholm: we haven't decided if we'll be doing out of process RPC, or in-process threads
[22:42] <agronholm> well you can't run java code without a JVM
[22:43] <FunkyELF> agronholm: oh.... you're saying that even with py4j the JVM is a separate process?
[22:43] <FunkyELF> I thought it might have embedded it
[22:43] <agronholm> embedded? how would that work?
[22:43] <agronholm> have you heard of such a thing being done?
[22:44] <FunkyELF> agronholm: I'm not super familiar with Java
[22:44] <FunkyELF> agronholm: It's been a while ;-)
[22:44] <agronholm> well, you need to run that jvm
[22:44] <FunkyELF> I know CPython can be both extended as well as embedded
[22:45] <agronholm> py4j can start one as a subprocess for you as a convenience
[22:46] <FunkyELF> Ideally I'd be able to use Jython in combination with RPyC , but there are some deadlock issues they decided to fix by disabling GC which makes RPyC incompatible now with Jython
[22:46] <agronholm> why rpyc, when py4j provides a much more seamless way to call Java?
[22:46] <FunkyELF> agronholm: I will definitely look into it tonight
[22:47] <FunkyELF> seems to be a security problem though as anybody with access to localhost can talk to the JVM
[22:48] <agronholm> ideally it would either work through pipes or at least only allow for one connection
[22:48] <FunkyELF> agronholm: is that possible with py4j?
[22:49] * FunkyELF checks if there is a #py4j channel on here
[22:50] <FunkyELF> agronholm: I'm seeing some of your comments on GitHub
[22:51] <agronholm> FunkyELF: it would require quite a bit of refactoring
[22:51] <FunkyELF> https://github.com/bartdag/py4j/issues/96
[22:51] <agronholm> py4j wasn't designed to operate over pipes
[22:51] <FunkyELF> "I've been planning to rework the Py4J internals to work with stdin/stdout too (and not just sockets) so each process can have its own "pet" JVM it can securely talk to."
[22:52] <agronholm> that's been postponed indefinitely
[22:52] <FunkyELF> agronholm: docker solves this problem at a different level... but then my project would have to be a docker project
[22:52] <agronholm> how does docker solve this?
[22:53] <agronholm> you would still need some form of RPC
[22:53] <agronholm> or IPC
[22:53] <FunkyELF> agronholm: not a docker expert, but from what I've seen with Docker is that you can expose different ports from containers
[22:53] <agronholm> yes
[22:54] <agronholm> so how would docker make this any easier?
[22:54] <FunkyELF> so you'd have your JVM container and your CPython container... the JVM container thinks its open to the world but it is only open to whatever Docker gives it access to
[22:54] <agronholm> ah I see what you mean
[22:54] <agronholm> then you only have to worry about other docker containers talking to your jvm
[22:54] <FunkyELF> like all these redis containers think they're open to the world but they're not
[22:55] <FunkyELF> yeah... might solve the problem, might push it up a level, who knows. Not a real solution anyway
[22:58] <jimbaker> FunkyELF, docker doesn't provide security, just isolation
[22:59] <FunkyELF> jimbaker: security through isolation?
[22:59] <jimbaker> they are just processes with some filesystem mapping. can be very useful. but if you don't trust what is in your container...
[22:59] <jimbaker> no security'
[23:00] <FunkyELF> jimbaker: or "false sense of security though isolation"?
[23:00] <jimbaker> FunkyELF, a false sense
[23:00] <jimbaker> you would still need to protect in some way
[23:01] <jimbaker> the isolation model is very handy - each docker container can have its own preferred set of ports - 80/443/etc - so it simplifies setup
[23:02] <FunkyELF> yeah... I like that you have a single machine with 10 different services each thinking they're running on port 80. At the docker level you map them to 8000, 8001, 8002, etc
[23:02] <jimbaker> and this may be sufficient. but i also get nervous about py4j being an open server that invokes arbitrary java code upon request :)
[23:06] <jimbaker> so the subprocess model seems to make more sense. anyway, i guess what you mean by disabling gc is that rpyc now only only works on python implementations that can disable gc. which jython, being on the jvm, cannot do
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