#jython IRC Log (v0.9)


IRC Log for 2014-05-06

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[2:31] <intangir> how can i cast a java type to another java type in jython?
[2:31] <intangir> this accessor function just gives a generic type, and normally in java you have to cast it to use more specific methods, ut i can't figure out how to cast my python one
[2:32] <intangir> heres the java version: BookMeta bm = (BookMeta) book.getItemMeta();
[2:56] <intangir> is anyone on..
[2:56] <intangir> i can't figure this out, ive tried 2 dozen different things
[2:56] <intangir> they all fail
[2:56] <intangir> i shouldve just written the fucking thing in java
[2:57] <intangir> i wanted to use python cause writing quick scripts is supposed to have like no overhead or setup time, but trying to figure out a cast like this takes 5 times longer than that anyway..
[3:05] <intangir> looks like it isn't even the cast thats the problem
[3:05] <intangir> something else, i haven't figured out yet.. don't even need to cast
[3:05] <intangir> just use the other types functions and it seems to work,. ii think i cant test it fully because some other unknown thing is failing
[3:06] <intangir> jython is still more trouble than its worth... but ive already written dozens of scripts in it so im too stubborn to change now..
[3:06] <intangir> later bots
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[16:49] <jimbaker> whg, so i'm in atlanta next week for the openstack summit
[16:49] <whg> Excellent!
[16:49] <whg> I've got a ticket for the 1st three days.
[16:49] <whg> (didn't get the full ticket since it suggested that was more for contributors)
[16:50] <jimbaker> so let's make sure we have a chance to meet. i fly in sun night, leave sat afternoon at 2:20p
[16:50] <jimbaker> whg, i also signed up for all the evening events
[16:53] <jimbaker> whg, i may have mentioned this, but this is the design session i proposed (merged in with another): http://junodesignsummit.sched.org/event/27c19c3e574beb85ecafa21a1d355955#.U2kTTa1dUcs - i guess w/ your ticket you may not be able to attend, but it should be still of interest
[16:53] <jimbaker> whg, another thing: https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-python/pull/150
[16:54] <jimbaker> html5lib-python is a natural destination for patois, but i'm going to get it in directly first this surrogate stuff. it has prompted some interesting back & forth about what codepoints are valid in python. maybe this is something that be better defined in 3.5
[16:55] <whg> I'm not sure I see the upside of gsnedders' argument there
[16:55] <whg> Except for "it enables hacky tests like this one", I guess
[16:57] <jimbaker> whg, it does seem a bit pointless. still i would like to see the CJK codecs enabled, because this does impact users running japanese windows, at the very least
[16:57] <jimbaker> basically this means these users cannot use the jython console
[16:57] <whg> Oh, I meant the other part
[16:57] <whg> Definitely would be nice to have the CJK encodings
[16:57] <jimbaker> sorry, i think we are agreeing on which part is pointless :)
[16:57] <whg> And honestly, I would have thought the JVM shipped
[16:57] <whg> with them
[16:58] <jimbaker> whg, it's a little more complicated
[16:58] <jimbaker> java has this support. cpython has this support. the error model is subtly different
[16:58] <jimbaker> at one point, i did dive into the details, but then i got distracted by something else
[16:59] <jimbaker> anyway, i probably will work on it for beta 4, just so we can get past this issue
[17:00] <whg> Sounds like largely thankless work, so: Thanks in advance
[17:02] <whg> jimbaker: As for the Summit, I have no plans at this point. You have any?
[17:02] <jimbaker> whg, i'm afraid it often is. i will have to tell my neighbor however when i complete it - he only bugged me about maybe 4 years ago when he was working for a japanese company
[17:03] <jimbaker> but then i got busy working over at canonical
[17:04] <jimbaker> whg, here's my current schedule - http://junodesignsummit.sched.org/jimbkr
[17:04] <jimbaker> monday i'm going to https://www.eventbrite.com/e/piston-presents-a-night-at-the-opera-at-the-opera-registration-11064457089
[17:06] <jimbaker> i have never been to a themed event at a conference that wasn't rather silly, but as long as the music isn't too loud, should be fun
[17:07] <jimbaker> also i have a great set of colleagues at rackspace who will find this as an excuse to dress up in fun ways
[17:07] <whg> hehe
[17:07] <whg> My understanding is that one of the IBM guys is attending as the green man
[17:08] <whg> Oh fun
[17:08] <whg> Opera Atlanta is **NOT** the same as that events center
[17:08] <whg> Just a little FYI
[17:08] <jimbaker> yeah, they will have buses
[17:08] <whg> Wonder what the ol' corporate firewall thinks I was just doing
[17:09] <whg> (I didn't know that until I clicked the link; rookie mistake)
[17:09] <jimbaker> whg, apparently you're being recruited or something like that ;)
[17:09] <whg> By the NSFW club?
[17:10] <whg> They obviously got a bad picture somewhere
[17:10] <jimbaker> whg, crazy. no i'm thinking of piston
[17:10] <whg> Ah
[17:10] <jimbaker> clearly i didn't really explore what i'm getting into
[17:11] <whg> There's apparently an??? adult??? club by the name of Opera Atlanta
[17:11] <whg> Which I did not know
[17:11] <whg> And then I clicked on it
[17:11] <whg> Opera Atlanta Events Center is a different thing
[17:12] <jimbaker> ahh. i live in a college town without even a nightclub
[17:12] <whg> Which is new? I used to basically walk past that on my way to class for a year, and I don't remember anything so swank in that particular neighborhood
[17:12] <whg> In fact, that neighborhood was really sketchy, back in the day
[17:13] <whg> jimbaker: Don't you live in Boulder?
[17:14] <jimbaker> whg, yes, in a suburb of boulder to be precise (12 minutes away). i like my quiet life
[17:14] <whg> The quiet life is nice
[17:15] <whg> The "easy to get to stuff" nature of downtown living is fun, but I like having trees all over my yard
[17:15] <jimbaker> whg, the other event i'm planning is to go trail running at stone mountain state park. looks like there's a fun 7 mile run - 5 miles around the mountain, 1 mile spur trail up to the top w/ 600 feet of net vertical
[17:16] <whg> You're used to climbs out there in the Rockies I'm sure
[17:16] <jimbaker> whg, i believe this will be easy for me, yes
[17:16] <whg> I was born and raised in a little town in south GA.
[17:16] <whg> The first time I went up stone mountain, I was like "Whoa!"
[17:16] <whg> South GA is basically one giant swamp. A 10-foot swell is a substantial hill down there
[17:17] <jimbaker> i grew up in central florida. i know the layout
[17:17] <whg> Hah.
[17:17] <whg> North of Orlando?
[17:17] <jimbaker> winter park to be precise
[17:17] <whg> (my aunt lives in Hastings)
[17:18] <jimbaker> i really like the area north of winter park, into the ocala national forest. fantastic springs
[17:19] <jimbaker> but overall - i'm really into geology and how it and climate shape the land, along with the overall ecosystem. just fun to observe
[17:20] <jimbaker> whg, anyway, really off topic at this point ;), but it's ok. i'm sure you saw the beta 3 pre-announcement
[17:20] <jimbaker> now also trying to think what will be in beta 4 - ideally the last beta - and hopefully get as much input into that as possible
[17:22] <jimbaker> looking at the regrtest output https://gist.github.com/jimbaker/a13cdfbbe7d1a108aef7, we are pretty close to getting to zero failures
[17:23] <jimbaker> but there's more to the beta 4 than the regrtest, even though i think it should be where focus our attention given our goal of python compliance
[17:26] <whg> More to beta 4? What particular stuff?
[17:26] <whg> (sorry, oldest got home from preschool and I got distracted)
[17:28] <whg> Oh, and just got my web browser back (opening your schedule was apparently the straw that broke the camel's back; the rest of the load was the 50-odd videos I had queued in various tabs).
[17:28] <whg> Your schedule looks pretty interesting
[17:28] <whg> You doing any hack sessions ?
[17:28] <jimbaker> whg, beta 3 should be released by the end of the week - https://sourceforge.net/p/jython/mailman/message/32301198/
[17:29] <whg> Oh, just found this while pruning my tabs of videos to watch: http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~jrose/values/values-0.html
[17:29] <jimbaker> whg, i should read that post
[17:29] <jimbaker> anything john rose writes is worth reading
[17:30] <whg> It's their initial proposal on adding value types to the JVM
[17:30] <jimbaker> but this is especially pertinent because of supporting value types
[17:30] <whg> As such, it's a little lower-level than I usually read
[17:30] <whg> They punt on how Generics and value types would mix, for example
[17:30] <whg> But it's been really interesting, so far
[17:31] <jimbaker> it's quite clear that java 7 and now 8 really got jvm dev going. really showing the value of being open sourced
[17:31] <jimbaker> so looking forward to these java 9 plans
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[17:32] <jimbaker> this can be seen in guy steele's participation - he was doing that interesting work on fortress, but bringing those ideas back
[17:33] <whg> That is one very smart dude
[17:34] <whg> I remember when he first announced fortress, some of the talks he was giving were just awesome
[17:35] <jimbaker> i really should think about going to the jvm language summit this summer. always makes me feel a bit smarter being around with these luminaries - good ideas do rub off
[17:36] <jimbaker> btw, value types would definitely help jython's performance
[17:36] <whg> tuples???
[17:38] <whg> Where else would be an obvious candidate for value types?
[17:39] <jimbaker> whg, this would include PyInteger, PyLong, PyFloat
[17:39] <jimbaker> for int, float
[17:39] <whg> Can you do arbitrary precision as a value type?
[17:39] <jimbaker> so if you iterate over xrange for example, you create lots of garbage. which is a good test of the GC
[17:40] <jimbaker> whg, perhaps not in the general case? but certainly for a small range
[17:40] <jimbaker> given immutabilty
[17:40] <jimbaker> datetime is another good candidate
[17:41] <whg> So do value types for all values in the traditional integer ranges sort of a thing?
[17:42] <jimbaker> i have thought for a while that jodatime would work well as the implementation for our datetime - it is very close, although because it restricts to 64 bits iirc, there are certain datetimes that are not representable (maybe millisecond precision, but not microsecond). so you have would to support both
[17:42] <jimbaker> but with value types, this restriction goes away of course
[17:43] <jimbaker> whg, i'm not certain what your question is...
[17:43] <whg> I wonder if valuetypes are being motivated at all by the new https://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=310 date time stuff
[17:44] <whg> jimbaker: Sorry, thinking out loud about your "small range" comment
[17:45] <jimbaker> whg, oh interesting. yes this jsr 310 was driven by jodatime
[17:45] <jimbaker> that took a while
[17:45] <whg> I remember the talk starting almost as soon as Joda came out and people were like "Wow! Java's date stuff sucks even more than we knew"
[17:46] <whg> I had forgotten about it until I saw the list of features in 8
[17:47] <jimbaker> whg, to be honest, i have not really looked deeply into java 8, other than following my interest in concurrency. should really play with it
[17:47] <jimbaker> but i suppose we could target jython 3.x against java 9 :)
[17:48] <whg> I'd be more excited about it if Nashorn hadn't hosed me
[17:48] <agronholm> what sucks about java's dates?
[17:48] <whg> agronholm: Everything
[17:48] <whg> The API is just horribly clunky
[17:48] <jimbaker> pretty good summary
[17:48] <agronholm> it is clunky
[17:48] <agronholm> but python's datetime stuff sucks equally as badly
[17:48] <jimbaker> mutability
[17:48] * whg shudders
[17:49] <jimbaker> so basically they made all of the junior developer mistakes
[17:49] <agronholm> not having integrated timezone support is a kind of a WTF
[17:51] <whg> http://www.joda.org/joda-time/ does a fair job of exposing the crappy parts of Java's original date/time stuff
[17:51] <jimbaker> whg, switching back to openstack momentarily - this is the general session that interests me most - http://junodesignsummit.sched.org/event/eec3fd9a6d3e23808f6d3cbc1acfbbe7
[17:52] <jimbaker> related to this blueprint - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Oslo/blueprints/asyncio
[17:52] <whg> I need to go to that one
[17:52] <jimbaker> i have mentioned here this project https://github.com/jythontools/artificialturf
[17:52] <jimbaker> but the name "artificial turf" clearly indicates what i think of emulating green threads
[17:52] <jimbaker> or greenlet specifically
[17:53] <jimbaker> whg, incidentally doug hellmann is a key contributor on this work, and he's in atlanta
[17:54] <whg> I know Doug.
[17:54] <jimbaker> cool, i plan to have at least one beer w/ doug :)
[17:54] <whg> I'm not sure if he remembers my name, because I don't see him that much, but he'd know me if he saw me
[17:54] <jimbaker> we haven't met in person for a while
[17:54] <whg> These beers??? tell me more :-)
[17:55] <whg> I'm a big beer geek, so I'm rather looking forward to being in the general vicinity of a better selection
[17:55] <whg> Also, the coffee shops down there are supposedly much better than they were when I was in school
[17:55] <jimbaker> whg, :) i don't know atlanta beers, but i do think our colorado beers are quite fantastic
[17:55] <whg> I don't get to try too many of the local offerings now that I don't live downtown
[17:55] <jimbaker> i do recall there's at least one good brew pub near the convention center
[17:56] <whg> But there are some very tasty ones
[17:56] <whg> Max Lager's ?
[17:56] <whg> Isn't there a MARTA station like a block or two away?
[17:56] <jimbaker> yes
[17:56] <whg> Then that opens up worlds of possibilities
[17:56] <jimbaker> that was the preferred stop at pycon atlanta
[17:57] <jimbaker> max lager's that is
[17:57] <whg> The Decatur stop on the East/West line is basically right in front of The Brick Store
[17:57] <whg> Max Lager's is pretty tasty
[17:58] <whg> 5 Seasons West is??? not convenient, per se, but also not terribly far.
[17:58] <whg> If you get tired of Max
[17:59] <whg> I wonder if they still do their own root beer at Max Lager's???
[17:59] <whg> It made a killer root beer float, IIRC
[17:59] <jimbaker> unlikely, with everything else going on. anyway, super convenient. btw, i'm at the courtyard atlanta downtown
[18:02] <whg> Cool.
[18:03] <whg> I need to figure out how I'm getting down there
[18:03] <whg> MARTA is less-than-convenient up this way, but I don't want to be driving downtown if I can help it
[18:10] <jimbaker> whg, awesome. i need to wrap up a couple of things before lunch shortly, but we should also find some time for some jython hacking
[18:10] <whg> Excellent
[18:10] <whg> Just pinged my manager about getting official clearance for me to hack on Jython
[18:11] <jimbaker> whg, one thing that could be really good is just spending time working on a triage list
[18:11] <jimbaker> always good to have a second realtime perspective on this
[18:12] <jimbaker> i did some bug grooming a couple of days ago, mostly to see what's there. (we have been sort of focused on what 2.7.0 needs, and the regrest is pretty good for that.)
[18:12] <jimbaker> regrtest
[18:13] <jimbaker> but the regrtest also doesn't capture java integration issues, or sometimes actual python gaps
[18:14] <jimbaker> so basically the roadmap to beta 4 would be a nice outcome :)
[18:16] <whg> Yeah
[18:19] <whg> I need to get set up to do full builds and run the test suite, and stuff, too
[18:20] <jimbaker> whg, https://wiki.python.org/jython/JythonDeveloperGuide
[18:20] <jimbaker> ok, got to run, ttyl!
[18:20] <whg> later!
[19:36] <fwierzbicki> OK Jython b2 announcement is up: http://fwierzbicki.blogspot.com/2014/05/jython-27-beta2-released.html
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[19:57] <svf_> hello, any jython experts awake by chance?
[19:58] <svf_> I'm thinking to try my hand at getting jython to AOT some code to .class files, that I can then load into RoboVM: http://www.robovm.org/
[20:30] * whg is now known as zz_whg
[21:05] <agronholm> svf_: you will likely need clamp for that
[21:05] <svf_> I've heard of it. I'll take a peek, ty =)
[21:10] <jimbaker> svf_, i'm one of the co-authors of clamp
[21:10] <svf_> oh, great. I was just readhing through the docs now
[21:10] <jimbaker> such as they are ;)
[21:11] <jimbaker> if you haven't found it yet - https://github.com/jimbaker/clamped
[21:11] <jimbaker> https://github.com/jimbaker/clamped/blob/master/talk.md
[21:11] <svf_> It seems, RoboVM takes standard .class files and outputs LLVM binaries for iOS/x86
[21:12] <svf_> It's working with Scala, and other basic JVM languages, I'm hoping clamp would let us do the same with jython .classes
[21:12] <jimbaker> ah interesting
[21:12] <jimbaker> i was mixing this up with the robot framework
[21:13] <svf_> Essentially giving a Python->x86 compiler through Jython, so it would be neat to have working.
[21:13] <jimbaker> so i suspect this will require similar work as supporting android
[21:13] <jimbaker> let me dig up a possibly relevant email i made re jython on android
[21:14] <svf_> yes, that would make sense.
[21:14] <svf_> No one has gotten Jython to work on android yet ?
[21:14] <svf_> even with Clamp ?
[21:15] <jimbaker> https://sourceforge.net/p/jython/mailman/message/32129343/
[21:16] <jimbaker> svf_, clamp would be the path
[21:17] <jimbaker> svf_, the problem is that we have a number of modules in jython's stdlib that would need this treatment
[21:17] <svf_> hmm.
[21:17] <jimbaker> which gets into circularity issues
[21:17] <svf_> what about for python code that doesn't use stdlib? they'll work fine?
[21:18] <jimbaker> you can run jython without python stdlib support, to a certain extent at least
[21:19] <jimbaker> you would start by disabling site.py import
[21:20] <svf_> I mean, the Java API itself provides a lot - sockets, file i/o, etc. not very 'Pythonic' but it would give a basic level path to working apps I guess.
[21:20] <jimbaker> i have not done the analysis, but i suspect that dynamic proxy support would suffice for most/all of stdlib usage - it's generally best practice to extend interfaces, vs subclassing
[21:21] <jimbaker> svf_, if you do AOT, that's probably workable
[21:21] <svf_> I think it's the only option with RoboVM,
[21:21] <jimbaker> svf_, i'm referring to AOT builds in site-packages where you are using pip to install stuff
[21:22] <jimbaker> so once that's done, you don't need pip's dependencies, which go down to socket/select/ssl support
[21:22] <jimbaker> which makes sense - you cannot use that in say a locked down servlet container such as google app engine
[21:23] <svf_> hmm, that makes sense...
[21:23] <jimbaker> svf_, anyway, please take a look at my proposal for android. it really is not about android, it's about this use case in general. now that we have two examples :)
[21:23] <jimbaker> dalvik and llvm
[21:24] <jimbaker> i would imagine you can also get other good stuff crosscompiled such as netty however
[21:25] <svf_> I'm trying to understand a bit - so Jython generates proxies at runtime for Java classes, this is the hiccup correct? And the 'compileall' module isn't smart enough to generate these along with the other .class files it spits out
[21:25] <jimbaker> netty 4 runs on android for example, although apparently netty 5 works better
[21:25] <jimbaker> svf_, correct
[21:25] <jimbaker> this is because of jython's class model
[21:26] <jimbaker> when you say class Foo(Fum): ...
[21:26] <svf_> which is what clamp does then, runs the same inner mechanics to gen those proxies, and save them out to the .class files ?
[21:26] <jimbaker> you are actually saying, call the type(...) function to construct a class for you
[21:27] <jimbaker> svf_, so clamp assumes (and it can, because you are explicitly using it) that if you import a clamped module, it's clampable
[21:27] <jimbaker> among other things, this means you cannot do noncompatible class definitions in an if statement for example
[21:28] <jimbaker> dynamic languages are wonderful :)
[21:28] <svf_> yes, it makes sense.
[21:28] <svf_> I was just decompiling the Jython 'compileall' output now, and it matches with what I saw.
[21:29] <svf_> I'm actually not so concerned with deriving or inheriting Java classes so much, but importing them and calling methods, so maybe it will be a simpler case for me.
[21:29] <jimbaker> svf_, i don't think it will be too bad
[21:30] <jimbaker> i suspect that the necessary work can be hacked out in a few days at most
[21:30] <jimbaker> although maybe longer to get it sufficiently stable
[21:31] <svf_> I'll read through your git repo then, it should be fun.
[21:31] * zz_whg is now known as whg
[21:31] <svf_> All in all, what you've done might enable python to run on iOS and compile to x86 code, so thanks for all the efforts.
[21:32] <jimbaker> svf_, i would love to work with you on this
[21:32] <svf_> I think many might like to see it happen :)
[21:32] <jimbaker> svf_, indeed!
[21:32] <svf_> It seems you lurk here often ?
[21:33] <jimbaker> ok, i got to run, but i will be back in about 30 min
[21:33] <jimbaker> svf_, yes
[21:33] <svf_> Are you affiliated with the Jython project as well ?
[21:33] <jimbaker> i'm one of the core devs
[21:33] <svf_> oh, great.
[21:33] <jimbaker> occasionally as is the case now, i'm the most active dev
[21:33] <jimbaker> that role passes amongst us, based on availability
[21:33] <jimbaker> ok, biab
[21:33] <svf_> I'm a j2ee architect as a day job, jython is a many-year love of mine now.
[21:33] <svf_> Great, thanks.
[21:33] <jimbaker> svf_, ahh, that's fantastic!
[21:34] <jimbaker> cool, ttyl
[21:34] <svf_> I'll post back status here if I can mangle anything out of all these ideas. thanks.
[21:42] * svf__ (4267ffb4@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #jython
[21:43] * svf_ (c6fce60f@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[22:11] <jimbaker> svf__, cool
[22:22] * oscar_toro (~Thunderbi@80-62-162-242-static.dk.customer.tdc.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[22:23] * shashank (~shashank@ Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[22:25] * shashank (~shashank@ has joined #jython
[22:35] * enebo (~enebo@c-75-73-8-169.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: enebo)
[23:44] <jimbaker> our bitbucket mirror has resynced
[23:56] * svf__ (4267ffb4@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)


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