#jython IRC Log

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IRC Log for 2013-09-26

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:00] <sinistersnare> it shows in the comments for certain lines
[0:00] <sinistersnare> around line 20
[0:01] <jimbaker> sinistersnare, right. so in general statics just work the way one would expect. i don't know Gdx (yet), but i would check that path carefully
[0:02] <jimbaker> i tend to just instrument my code in such circumstances. print dir(whatever) can be very handy
[0:02] <jimbaker> just to verify it's being mapped properly. eg, is it really Gdx.graphics? not sure, dir(Gdx)
[0:03] <sinistersnare> actually that MAY work, because the error is also talking about some openGL issues...
[0:03] <jimbaker> so i'm running the clamp stuff, it's installing everything through setuptools with a custom command
[0:03] <jimbaker> AND it doesn't yet work
[0:03] <sinistersnare> http://bpaste.net/show/j5qZyfkt9lslsa3OH1Jc/ this probably doesnt mean much to you, ill see if #lwjgl exists/understands
[0:04] <jimbaker> doesn't **quite** yet work. darn, looks like the proxy initialization does not import site.py, so it's not quite a full jython runtime. which means that site-packages don't get imported
[0:04] <jimbaker> sinistersnare, yeah, that looks like the problem :)
[0:05] <sinistersnare> but PyDev is highligthing the static files (Gdx.graphics highlights graphics etc.) too
[0:05] <sinistersnare> so its confusing
[0:05] <sinistersnare> but that also happens with clojure and java i think (testing now...)
[0:10] <jimbaker> sinistersnare, yeah, no experience w/ PyDev - emacs is my editor of choice for python/scala, intellij for java
[0:10] <jimbaker> got to run, a meetup to catch
[0:10] <sinistersnare> interesting, ok thanks
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[8:01] <topi`> fwierzbicki: I'm using jython 2.7b1 and the release version, not the trunk version
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[8:15] <topi`> I wonder if your permgen fixes are applicable to 2.7b1 as well?
[8:42] <topi`> now I compiled the jython trunk using "ant", and it compiled ok, but running I got this:
[8:42] <topi`> Topin-MacBook:jython topi$ java -jar dist/jython-dev.jar
[8:42] <topi`> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com/google/common/collect/MapMaker
[8:48] <topi`> jimbaker: so you do Scala as well? :) I tried to learn the language, even bought a Scala book, but so far it's been a bit.. intimidating..
[8:48] <topi`> it does have some very interesting features, though. but I still prefer Haskell for functional programming ;)
[8:51] <topi`> uh, the documentation in jython source tree (Doc/) is very, very old. It talks about python 2.1
[8:53] <topi`> jimbaker: there must be some way to import site.py, unless it is just plain impossible at proxy initialization time?
[9:05] * Arfrever (~Arfrever@apache/committer/Arfrever) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[9:30] <topi`> grr. I can't find any HOWTO generate a standalone jar file from that jython-devel.jar ...
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[12:34] <jimbaker> topi`, i teach scala for my cs class "principles of programming languages", which is focused on functional programming. the lecture notes for a scala workshop i did at rackspace is here, https://github.com/rackerlabs/scala-workshop
[12:35] <jimbaker> topi`, yeah, i don't think it will be too difficult to ensure that site.py is called. and because it's 2.7, we can reasonably change this behavior. just going to see if i can refactor entry points so they use the same initialization
[12:40] <topi`> jimbaker: can you explain me how to make a standalone jar file out of the jython-devel.jar please?
[12:41] <jimbaker> topi`, ant all-jars
[12:41] <topi`> the colleagues are getting angry because I break their Tomcat always when I redeploy :/
[12:41] <topi`> thanks!
[12:41] <topi`> now let's see if it fixes the issue or if i'll continue the bug-hunt until times immemorial.
[12:42] <jimbaker> topi`, one thing i'm going to add to clamp shortly is a singlejar command
[12:42] <topi`> jimbaker: my colleague is advocating groovy/grails instead of sane languages like jython ... so I'm between the bark and the tree here.
[12:42] <jimbaker> so a clamped project can simply do $ jython setup.py singlejar
[12:43] <topi`> now ant is apparently working on something. I'll take a cup of tea now.
[12:43] <jimbaker> it's pretty cool, i now grok setuptools. ironically my first project ever in pypi will be sort of a metaproject for pypi
[12:43] <topi`> jimbaker: any moral support on my quest of decimating groovy/grails from the face of earth? ;)
[12:43] <jimbaker> topi`, on my recent vintage mac laptop, it's about 1min start to finish
[12:44] <topi`> admittedly, the integrated development env of Grails is pretty useful
[12:44] <topi`> but... I generally shun IDEs in favor of emacs with proper bindings :)
[12:44] <jimbaker> topi`, groovy/grails. interesting choices. when they were acquired by springsource, then emc, lots of $ thrown at it
[12:45] <jimbaker> doesn't change the fact that groovy is inherently a flawed language :)
[12:46] <jimbaker> so groovy is sort of like matlab or IDL or the SAS language
[12:47] <jimbaker> still hard to compete with python. i think the better competition against jython/django would be jruby/rails
[12:49] <topi`> yes, I also think JRuby/rails as the competitor
[12:50] <topi`> Ruby and Python are similar in many ways. although, their designs started from different ends ;)
[12:50] <topi`> Python's advantage is that it was meant to be read as easily as possible. and I think Guido really pulled that one off.
[12:50] <jimbaker> topi`, yeah, so to me that's the only sane competitor
[12:52] <topi`> ok now how to replace the jython-standalone.jar in my virtualenv (that the django app is using) with the one I just built...
[12:52] <jimbaker> both jython and jruby bring huge ecosystems because they are python and ruby respectively. i should mention that the biggest change we did in 2.5 was to make jython as compatible as possible, breaking some old jython scripts
[12:52] <topi`> I think jython 2.7 is already fairly compatible. I consider running Django a big benchmark :)
[12:52] <topi`> as well as Twisted
[12:53] <topi`> there are some odd bits and pieces which don't fully work. Like that "dstat" module that parses system stats from linux.
[12:53] <jimbaker> topi`, although i supervised the GSOC student who did the django war support, and was involved in making django run... i don't know :)
[12:53] <topi`> the war support is fairly simple
[12:54] <jimbaker> topi`, yeah, i remember it. just don't remember details
[12:55] <jimbaker> it might be useful to combine w/ clamp, so i will look. but cannot now... got to teach soon!
[12:55] <topi`> that's the fate of side projects ;)
[12:55] <topi`> have you tweeted about clamp? or habe I just missed it?
[13:00] * zz_whg is now known as whg
[13:01] <jimbaker> topi`, no tweets yet
[13:02] <jimbaker> i guess that would be a reasonable thing to do, even maybe before it's finished :)
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[13:09] <Scorp1us> hello?
[13:12] <Scorp1us> I am getting an error cannot initialize module when starting my app. However this seems different form class not found
[13:16] <agronholm> what does the error say then
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[14:15] <topi`> this is rather unfortunate, but it seems that upgrading jython to trunk (with the proposed Tomcat permgen leak fixes) hasn't changed the fact that my app still appears in the "Find memory leaks" list...
[14:15] <topi`> fwierzbicki: did the author of that patch test it with a Tomcat installation?
[14:18] <topi`> I did read something about the JDBC connectors that when being deployed onto Tomcat, they also cause memory leaks
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[15:57] <fwierzbicki> topi`: I believe the author was specifically fixing the tomcat bug
[15:58] <fwierzbicki> topi`: it wouldn't go in 2.7b1 - but it will certainly be in a 2.7b2 when we get enough fixes together for that.
[15:58] <fwierzbicki> I think as soon as Twisted core is looking good I'd be ready to roll a 2.7b2
[15:59] <fwierzbicki> Since that would be big news
[15:59] <fwierzbicki> Generally for Jython once a release is out it is fixed
[15:59] <fwierzbicki> but we can always do a point release
[16:00] * whg is now known as zz_whg
[16:14] <topi`> fwierzbicki: I've submitted some patches to Twisted, and so far it looks good
[16:31] <topi`> should we rename PythonInterpreter as PythonRuntime? or something else that is more correct :)
[16:31] <fwierzbicki> topi`: great!
[16:32] <fwierzbicki> topi`: Ha - that is annoying - but I don't know. Backwards incompatibilities like that are a tough sell
[16:32] <topi`> fwierzbicki: what's the status of maintaining jython right now? afaik there are no more gold sponsors willing to fund jython development right now?
[16:32] <topi`> maybe we ought to open a indiegogo funding for jython 3 ;)
[16:33] <topi`> s/funding/fundraising
[16:33] <fwierzbicki> Adconion gives me 10% of my time - but that is a bit slow :)
[16:33] <fwierzbicki> Ha - I don't know if that would get very far. Jython is pretty niche
[16:33] <topi`> indeed it is
[16:34] <topi`> but there *are* some killer apps, like django-on-jython deployed as a .WAR
[16:34] <fwierzbicki> oh yeah - if only I had had the three years that JRuby got at Sun. I only got about a year and it wasn't quite enough???.
[16:34] <topi`> many suits, and indeed our own bosses, are just sold when you can say "but it runs on Tomcat"
[16:35] <topi`> anyway, for Tomcat/Glassfish deployment, I consider django-on-jython far superior to Groovy/Grails
[16:35] <fwierzbicki> But Jython 2.7 is close - and Jython 3 would be relatively easy (I think) to get contributions since there is so much little stuff to do
[16:35] <topi`> any way I could help with Jython 2.7?
[16:35] <topi`> with the little spare time I got ;)
[16:35] <fwierzbicki> So I'm hopeful
[16:36] <fwierzbicki> The biggest blocker is all of the tests that are commented out with "FIXME"
[16:36] <topi`> ok :) I did run some tests and it seemed some were skipped, and some failed miserably
[16:36] <fwierzbicki> grepping our Lib/* for that might show up something that looks useful
[16:36] <topi`> like some asyncore tests, which I consider somewhat irrelevant anyways ;)
[16:36] <fwierzbicki> The failures are about to get the FIXME treatment
[16:37] <fwierzbicki> I'm looking at a pull request to complete that - at least for Linux (and I'll finish it out for OSX)
[16:37] <topi`> fwierzbicki: I consider getting Jython run Twisted and Django as a definitive benchmark for maturity ;)
[16:38] <fwierzbicki> That was one of our main accomplishments in 2.5 - Django support. I'd very much consider Twisted support to be a key feature of 2.7.
[16:38] <fwierzbicki> Pyramid already works BTW
[16:39] <fwierzbicki> So I think that is the three big ones (not counting Zope - that would be a huge task)
[16:39] <topi`> Zope has too much metaclass magic ;)
[16:39] <topi`> but doesn't Pyramid depend on some Zope code?
[16:40] <fwierzbicki> Yeah - that's tough to get right
[16:40] <topi`> as well as Twisted
[16:40] <topi`> at least zope.interfaces
[16:40] <fwierzbicki> Yeah - that one we solved in 2.5 (I believe)
[16:40] <topi`> I guess the zope guys did some rewriting of zope.interfaces for the version 4.0 (to be PY3 compatible)
[16:41] <topi`> those PY3 specific patches could also help Jython
[16:41] <topi`> since they tend to avoid some tough issues, like the buffer interface, of PY2
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[17:08] <Scorp1us> So can anyone help me with my servlet?
[17:08] <Scorp1us> java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class eu.webtoolkit.jwt.WApplication
[17:09] <topi`> WApplication is probably not on your CLASSPATH
[17:09] <Scorp1us> http://www.webtoolkit.eu/jwt/latest/doc/javadoc/eu/webtoolkit/jwt/package-summary.html
[17:09] <Scorp1us> well servlets use jars from WEB-INF\lib
[17:10] <Scorp1us> its in there
[17:10] <Scorp1us> if i remove it, it get a different error
[17:11] <Scorp1us> So it sees it.
[17:14] <Scorp1us> http://pastebin.com/gNYU6h2B
[17:17] <Scorp1us> I wonder if Jython is broken
[17:18] <jimbaker> topi`, we are currently working on adding buffer
[17:18] <jimbaker> jeff allen is taking a look, which is logical since he wrote our memoryview support
[17:20] <jimbaker> fwierzbicki, topi` - getting zope.interfaces to work was a fun project for 2.5 - i remember working on it some lazy evenings in crested butte colorado while hanging out w/ bruce eckel's posse
[17:21] <jimbaker> hike in the morning, open space conversations in the afternoon, hack in the late evening
[17:26] <Scorp1us> arg, this makes no sense
[17:32] <Scorp1us> is there a mailing list?
[17:43] <jimbaker> Scorp1us, https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users
[17:44] <topi`> we need better FAQs since Scorp1us is clearly fighting very similar issues to what I fought some time ago
[17:49] <Scorp1us> indeed
[17:49] <jimbaker> topi`, no question about that! there are few open source projects that don't have this problem :(
[17:49] * zz_whg is now known as whg
[17:50] <jimbaker> but no excuses for us
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[18:02] <Scorp1us> well it should "just work"
[18:03] <Scorp1us> but there is not a specific enough error message for me to continue
[18:13] <Scorp1us> i'm wondering if it has somethign to do with Jython's introspection of jars?
[18:13] <Scorp1us> does it need to write anywhere?
[18:50] * vext01 (~edd@host-92-20-152-6.as13285.net) has joined #jython
[18:50] <vext01> hello #jython
[18:51] <vext01> am i correct in thinking that I cannot call Python (i.e. Jython's application level) from Java without embedding?
[18:55] <Scorp1us> no
[18:56] <vext01> ah great
[18:56] <Scorp1us> you can call it as directly as you want
[18:56] <Scorp1us> http://www.jython.org/jythonbook/en/1.0/ModulesPackages.html
[18:57] <vext01> wait, that is the reverse
[18:58] <vext01> this is showing Python->Java calls
[18:58] <vext01> can we do Java->Python?
[18:59] <Scorp1us> http://www.jython.org/jythonbook/en/1.0/JythonAndJavaIntegration.html
[18:59] <Scorp1us> sorry, i pasted wrtong chapter
[18:59] <vext01> ah
[19:00] <Scorp1us> http://www.jython.org/jythonbook/en/1.0/JythonAndJavaIntegration.html#using-jython-within-java-applications
[19:01] <Scorp1us> its not straight-up transparent, you still need to use the python interpreter
[19:01] <Scorp1us> but cool feature: you can take a cpython pyc file and use it too
[19:03] <vext01> just reading
[19:06] <vext01> its almost embedding
[19:08] <Scorp1us> Not like it used to be in CPython though
[19:09] <Scorp1us> you just need factory, you don't need to worry about marshalling
[19:09] <Scorp1us> topi`: what were your issues?
[19:16] <vext01> Scorp1us: sure
[19:16] <jimbaker> Scorp1us, jar introspection can be cached through python.cachedir, but such caching is not required
[19:17] <vext01> also, I am unable to build jython
[19:17] <vext01> ntlr_gen: [java] Error: Could not find or load main class org.antlr.Tool
[19:17] <vext01> a^
[19:20] <jimbaker> so i'm working on better support for jython on using python from java integration; here's a taste: https://gist.github.com/jimbaker/6717525
[19:20] <jimbaker> oops, forgot one important file, from java
[19:22] <jimbaker> added example java class using a clamped python class to above gist
[19:23] <jimbaker> topi`, it's almost ready for my blog post :) just to need fix site.py importing and should be good to go
[19:25] <jimbaker> Scorp1us, in particular, i think being able to say import bar.clamped.BarClamp; in java AND later BarClamp barclamp = new BarClamp(), is handy. i will add support for a variadic constructor (Object ??? ) real soon now as well
[19:26] <Scorp1us> ah
[19:26] <Scorp1us> well I'm still just trrying to get Jython to pick up Java classes
[19:32] <vext01> looks like this extlibs dir is missing from my sources
[19:32] <jimbaker> Scorp1us, that part should be easy
[19:33] <jimbaker> fwiw, the number one mistake i have seen is inadvertently using java -jar, since that ignores -classpath
[19:34] <jimbaker> or something like that - always have to a correct classpath, or classloaders in place, that resolve classnames
[19:34] <Scorp1us> Well I'm in a servlet
[19:34] <Scorp1us> are you on the mailing list?
[19:34] <jimbaker> Scorp1us, i'm on that mailing list
[19:34] <Scorp1us> You should have seen my message go out recently
[19:34] <Scorp1us> I gave details
[19:35] <Scorp1us> I would really appreciate it if you took a look
[19:35] <Scorp1us> I've been banging m head on my desk for 3 days.
[19:36] <vext01> guys, would i need to set some classpath or something to build jython?
[19:36] <vext01> docs say, run ant
[19:36] <vext01> but er, well it fails to find antlr
[19:36] <jimbaker> Scorp1us, no email yet, but i'd hate to see you bang your head on stuff like this
[19:36] <vext01> which is supposed to be in this mysterious extlib dir
[19:37] <Scorp1us> i'll pastebin it
[19:37] <jimbaker> vext01, yeah, we contain all the necessary dependent jars in extlibs
[19:37] <vext01> ive just found them in hg
[19:37] <vext01> but not in the source jar i downloaded from the website
[19:38] <Scorp1us> jimbaker: http://pastebin.com/PWsLs3Up
[19:38] <jimbaker> sven was looking at making the project maven compatible
[19:38] <jimbaker> vext01, yeah, you want to use hg to clone if you are going to be using ant
[19:38] <vext01> ok cool
[19:39] <vext01> i should introduce myself
[19:39] <jimbaker> Scorp1us, looking
[19:39] <Scorp1us> thanks jimbaker
[19:39] <vext01> im a researcher, my team is investigating language composition
[19:39] <vext01> we have just implemented a composition of python and prolog using rpython
[19:40] <vext01> now we want to try the same with jython and tuprolog for performance comparisons
[19:40] <vext01> we want to know whether rpythons tracing benefits the composition
[19:40] <vext01> (in a nutshell)
[19:41] <vext01> hence, im trying to get to grips with jython :)
[19:41] <Scorp1us> vext01: have you looked into LLVM?
[19:42] <vext01> this was another option yes
[19:42] <vext01> however, we dont want to write the interpreters ourself
[19:42] <vext01> it turns out there are loads of prolog implementations and a decent python interpreter for java ;)
[19:42] <Scorp1us> woull you have to?
[19:43] <vext01> oh you mean use C implementations?
[19:43] <vext01> and turn the jit on?
[19:43] <vext01> certainly possible
[19:43] <Scorp1us> Well PyPy is the fastyst python implementation
[19:43] <jimbaker> vext01, yeah, one does not simply write a python implementation for the jvm. i recommend using an existing one :)
[19:43] <vext01> quite
[19:44] <vext01> your implementation looks pretty decent, hence i am here
[19:44] <vext01> :)
[19:45] <jimbaker> makes sense to me. it could be even made much faster than pypy (already an existence proof for ruby), there are some uc irvine guys looking at that, targeting truffle/graal
[19:46] <vext01> jimbaker: you mean jython could be made faster than pypy?
[19:46] <jimbaker> vext01, yes
[19:46] <vext01> if you have any paper explaining this, i would be most interested
[19:46] <vext01> it is my understanding that dynamic languages are hard to optimise without a tracing jit
[19:46] <jimbaker> there's an implementation of ruby on truffle/graal that does just that
[19:46] <vext01> ah, truffle yes
[19:46] <vext01> thats not quite the same though, right?
[19:47] <jimbaker> vext01, what do you mean?
[19:47] <Scorp1us> Ah, i think straight speed is not goign to be worth it. We'll just paralellize everything
[19:47] <jimbaker> basically truffle gives developers specific dynamic language support
[19:47] <vext01> truffle type specialises ASTs, right?
[19:48] <vext01> i need to read up on that ruby implementation though
[19:48] <vext01> sounds relevant
[19:48] <jimbaker> vext01, i don't know how much it consumes of the AST. but type specialization, yes
[19:49] <vext01> indeed, at runtime iirc
[19:49] <Scorp1us> Would mentioning lua/JuaJIT be out of place?
[19:49] <vext01> hehe not atall
[19:49] <Scorp1us> er, LuaJIT
[19:49] <vext01> we had an accademic visit recently and discuss it
[19:49] <jimbaker> vext01, i don't know if the paper is publicly available, but it's requestable. i can put you in touch. jbaker AT zyasoft DOT com
[19:49] <Scorp1us> its very popular
[19:49] <vext01> what is the title?
[19:50] <vext01> wow, your hg clones fast
[19:50] <vext01> pypy takes about 45 mins
[19:51] <Scorp1us> jim, any luck yet with my issue?
[19:51] <jimbaker> "Thomas W??rthinger, Christian Wimmer, Andreas W????, Lukas Stadler, Gilles Duboscq, Christian Humer, Gregor Richards, Doug Simon, Mario Wolczko: One VM to Rule Them All. In Proceedings of Onward!, ACM Press, 2013."
[19:51] <vext01> ah yes
[19:51] <Scorp1us> I thought that was .NET?
[19:52] <Scorp1us> lol
[19:53] <vext01> i have this paper in my repo
[19:53] <vext01> didnt realise it was ruby, will give it a read at some stage
[19:53] <jimbaker> Scorp1us, i'm going to just have to suggest general debugging advice. i would start by confirming that your imports are correct by running this in jython directly, without being in a container
[19:53] <jimbaker> vext01, very worthwhile
[19:54] <vext01> \o/ just built jython
[19:54] <jimbaker> vext01, it will be interesting to hear about your composition experiments
[19:54] <vext01> we have a paper in vmil i can link you to
[19:54] <jimbaker> vext01, yeah, it takes about 1 min for me to go from clean to all-jars on my laptop
[19:55] <vext01> jimbaker: are you an accademic?
[19:55] <jimbaker> not like pypy's analysis stage
[19:55] <vext01> yeh, drives me nuts
[19:55] <jimbaker> vext01, curiously enough, i'm sitting in my office at the univ of colorado, about to go have lunch w/ my TAs for a course i teach
[19:55] <jimbaker> but i'm in industry, just a parttime academic :)
[19:56] <jimbaker> (i work at rackspace)
[19:56] <vext01> ah cool
[19:56] <Scorp1us> jimbaker: i get the same in Jython
[19:56] <Scorp1us> (non servlet)
[19:56] <jimbaker> Scorp1us, i would start w/ that
[19:56] <vext01> let me find the link to the paper for you
[19:56] <jimbaker> that hugely simplifies the problem now
[19:56] <Scorp1us> awesome
[19:56] <jimbaker> vext01, thanks please do
[19:56] <vext01> http://soft-dev.org/pubs/pdf/barrett_bolz_tratt__unipycation_a_study_in_cross_language_tracing.pdf
[19:57] <vext01> (its early work)
[19:57] <jimbaker> vext01, thanks
[19:57] * thereisnospoon (~thereisno@c58-107-8-85.fitzg4.qld.optusnet.com.au) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[19:57] <jimbaker> ok, i have a lunch meeting in 5 min, so biab!
[19:57] <vext01> enjoy
[19:57] <Scorp1us> jimbaker: nooo :-)
[19:58] <Scorp1us> ok well i will send oyu a beer you if you figure this out hen you et back
[19:58] <vext01> its great that jython works on openbsd too
[19:58] <Scorp1us> and my forehead with thank you
[19:59] <Scorp1us> vext01: why wouldn't it?
[19:59] <vext01> openbsd is not a prime platform for java :P
[20:00] <Scorp1us> See, this is where I really show my colors... I'm Qt and CPyhton fan
[20:00] <vext01> hehe
[20:00] <Scorp1us> it's the most portable app platform ever.
[20:00] <vext01> python is quite painless in that sense, yes
[20:02] <vext01> right, enough work for a day
[20:02] <vext01> i'll loiter, maybe see you around
[20:03] <Scorp1us> k.
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[21:42] <jimbaker> Scorp1us, i looked at little at the jwt package. in general, i would look for other jar dependencies. eg if i don't have slf4j (you have that included), i will get a buried java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError. i would expect you would have the servlet classes available from javax when running in a tomcat container, so that should resolve WtServlet, but perhaps there's something else missing?
[21:43] <jimbaker> hopefully on the mailing list has used jwt
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