#jython IRC Log


IRC Log for 2013-09-10

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[1:28] <FLOSSrookie> How does jython compare when accessing java based databases? I LIKE HSQLDB!
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[4:45] <Juneau001> updated jython.org a bit???repaired twitter feed and some broken links
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[12:09] <daenney> jimbaker: Did you catch this? http://medianetwork.oracle.com/video/player/2623645003001/
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[13:16] <topi`> jimbaker: I got Django installed using easy_install after applying your socket.py/ssl.py patches to my Lib
[13:16] <topi`> jimbaker: have you worked on something more elaborate to enable pip? :)
[13:20] <topi`> daenney: it's an interesting talk. Evidently Oracle still has some R&D work going on. And it makes a good point - JVM provides a solid platform for almost any language.
[13:20] <topi`> let's see what's the beef in their "framework"
[13:23] <daenney> topi`: True, I found it very interesting and the more I've done on the JVM, the more I like the JVM, it's working out fairly well
[13:23] <daenney> I always disliked the JVM, because of Java, turns out that might have been a bit short-sighted
[13:24] <topi`> daenney: I've always liked the Python VM and it's specialized instructions, LOAD_FAST and friends :) but indeed the JVM makes a lot of sense.
[13:25] <topi`> but the python VM isn't really a fully fledged VM in any case, it's just a "vehicle" to get python running :)
[13:26] <daenney> topi`: I've never dared go down the rabbit hole of the Python VM
[13:49] <daenney> Have you guys given any thought to Py3 and the whole tulip thing?
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[14:11] <jimbaker> topi`, i happened to be at that conference :)
[14:11] <jimbaker> so yes, caught it, it's nice work & there are uc irvine phd students who working on applying this to python for their thesis. they are currently using jython so they can avoid unnecessary issues
[14:12] <jimbaker> such as getting MRO correct
[14:12] <jimbaker> re pip, i have a hacked version going
[14:12] <jimbaker> i will post a gist of my hacks, then fork pip to do this a bit better
[14:15] <jimbaker> topi`, https://gist.github.com/jimbaker/6510009
[14:17] <jimbaker> topi`, this with current https://bitbucket.org/jimbaker/jython-ssl, should work
[14:19] <jimbaker> btw, one thing i noticed is that 2.6 added support to automatically delete files upon close. a missing feature in jython this moment! this manifests when you do say, jpip install PLY; jpip uninstall PLY; jpip install PLY. workaround: delete the directory it's complaining about. jpip of course = dist/bin/pip, as installed into jython-ssl branch
[14:21] <jimbaker> ok, i better get back to prepping for the programming languages course i teach - starting in just 1h!
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[15:49] <daenney> jimbaker: Nah, prepared teachers are so overrated. Fix Jython first :)
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[17:08] <jimbaker> daenney, :)
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[20:22] <whg> Does Jython provide any sugar for JMX, along the lines of some of the Spring convenience classes?
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[20:56] <topi`> jimbaker: I also started teaching today :) I teach spanish ;)
[20:58] <topi`> has anyone used Quartz to schedule some tasks inside JVM? I'm wondering whether it'd be possible to use Jython to create the function that Quartz is scheduling. (that method has to implement Runnable, afaik)
[20:58] <jimbaker> topi`, where do you live and teach? i'm in boulder, and i have an adjunct appt in the cs dept at the univ of colorado
[20:58] <jimbaker> (keeps me busy!)
[20:58] <topi`> jimbaker: in Finland :)
[20:58] <topi`> the country of Linus!
[20:58] <jimbaker> topi`, agronholm also lives in finland
[20:58] <topi`> and Microsoft-Nokia ;)
[20:58] <jimbaker> topi`, right, all good stuff
[20:58] <topi`> haha
[20:59] <jimbaker> topi`, in general, if it needs to implement Runnable, that should be easy
[20:59] <topi`> jimbaker: maybe we ought to put together a Jython-FI gathering ;)
[20:59] <topi`> I bet Jython circles are small in Finland, as everywhere...
[20:59] <jimbaker> topi`, and you can invite me to come speak :)
[21:00] <jimbaker> i have actually been close before, i've been to sweden 3 times
[21:00] <topi`> jimbaker: how does the PythonInterpreter get involved, when Quartz schedules my task?
[21:00] <jimbaker> topi`, one moment, need to jump into conf call
[21:00] <jimbaker> but i wil try to answer
[21:00] <topi`> Sweden is just 20 hours of sailing away from me ;)
[21:02] <jimbaker> so tobias lindaaker and i once sailed from stockholm to estonia, on our way to europython in vilnius
[21:02] <topi`> cool
[21:03] <jimbaker> so we came relatively close
[21:03] <jimbaker> tobias used to do a lot of work on jython
[21:03] <topi`> jimbaker: have you written any further blogs about Proxymaker recently?
[21:04] <jimbaker> it's on my task list, maybe this week i will do
[21:04] <jimbaker> it
[21:04] <topi`> I haven't really been able to follow :) I barely got Django going and making a WAR f it.
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[21:57] <jimbaker> topi`, re quartz - almost done w/ my conf call
[21:59] <jimbaker> so the PythonInterpreter means the jython runtime
[21:59] <jimbaker> and it's always going to be involved
[22:00] <jimbaker> you can try using the support i landed for custom proxies, if quartz support no-arg constructors
[22:00] <jimbaker> (including of course any builders, that's always easy)
[22:01] <jimbaker> i can take a look at adding constructors that take args too, that's the next logical step, along w/ annotation support
[22:03] <jimbaker> topi`, so just need to know what quartz wants to see, then go from there. super vague!
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[22:15] <jimbaker> whg, i posted an example of using jmx from jython; this is from my 2012 oscon talk
[22:15] <jimbaker> https://gist.github.com/jimbaker/6516506
[22:16] <jimbaker> it might be nice to come up w/ a good jmxlib for jython and put it up in pypi, for this sort of functionality. it would be *fantastic* to then integrate that w/ ipython ;)
[22:16] <jimbaker> that should be :) :)
[22:17] <jimbaker> because i could really see some value in that, for navigating a complex java environment
[22:44] <topi`> jimbaker: how I see it, is that Quartz imports your class to the JVM, and then executes its Runnable method when the scheduler says so.
[22:45] <jimbaker> topi`, ok, this sounds like a good use of custom proxies then
[22:45] <topi`> What I don't understand is how can you get PythonInterpreter involved in this. Unless - you pass pythoninterpreter's class directly in.
[22:45] <jimbaker> topi`, you don't
[22:45] <topi`> and somehow tell to import foo ; foo.run()
[22:45] <jimbaker> in general the default behavior that the proxy constructs the jython runtime is fine
[22:46] <topi`> ok so it's a good use case for proxies?
[22:46] <jimbaker> topi`, i think so
[22:46] <topi`> ok. I'll wait your writeup about ProxyMaker :)
[22:46] <jimbaker> ok, i will definitely write this up sometime this week :)
[22:47] <topi`> it would be cool if I didn't have to use java at all ;)
[22:47] <topi`> so far Django has been easy to work with, inside Tomcat
[22:47] <topi`> although I feel the performance is somehow sluggish
[22:49] <topi`> maybe there's a lot of construction going on when Tomcat passes the control on to Django code
[22:50] <jimbaker> topi`, so object construction is fairly expensive in jython
[22:50] <jimbaker> compared to cpython
[22:51] <topi`> so we need to reuse those objects ;)
[22:51] <jimbaker> topi`, hard to say, that tends to be an antipattern in java
[22:52] <jimbaker> the biggest win is generally find the hotspots in your jython code and rewrite that one loop or whatever in java
[22:52] <jimbaker> for a variety of reasons, current jython does not allow much eliding - that is, removal of extra work, like object construction - that java can do
[22:53] <topi`> does JRuby suffer from same problems?
[22:53] <topi`> what I've seen is that JRuby is very performant
[22:53] <jimbaker> topi`, they have done a lot of work on performance, through invokedynamic and related support
[22:54] <topi`> do we have anyone working on that? :)
[22:54] <jimbaker> we have done *some* work on perf, but it's a fair amount of work to also make it be compliant w/ python semantics
[22:54] <topi`> I guess feature parity with CPython is more important
[22:54] <jimbaker> yes
[22:55] <jimbaker> there are two students at uc irvine who started looking at this
[22:55] <topi`> good news
[22:55] <jimbaker> note that it requires running on an alternative jvm
[22:55] <jimbaker> so may or may not be generally applicable
[22:55] <jimbaker> i think you may have mentioned the talk, one vm to rule them all
[22:56] <topi`> yeah, the SVM, whatever that is
[22:56] <topi`> but it looks interesting, the mem footprint is very low
[22:56] <jimbaker> the name escapes me too
[22:57] <jimbaker> so that low mem footprint only is the case if you are not java functionality
[22:57] <topi`> it's like a subset of JVM, without reflection
[22:57] <jimbaker> which is sort of interesting, i suppose
[22:57] <jimbaker> i want to use java functionality :)
[22:58] <topi`> naturally
[22:58] <topi`> CPython uses C libraries, etc :)
[23:09] <jimbaker> ok, got to run. i should have a clean fork of pip pushed up soon, however
[23:09] <jimbaker> and then hopefully we will get it upstreamed at some point soon
[23:13] <topi`> ok.


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