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[2:16] <jimbaker> shanka, good feedback on your performance work at pycon - it definitely prompted interest
[2:25] <shanka> jimbaker: wow! that's nice to hear
[2:26] <shanka> jimbaker: how did your talk go?
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[3:27] <jimbaker> shanka, my talk went reasonably well
[3:27] <jimbaker> i had a little bit of a mixup in my slides, but it happens
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[3:42] <fwierzbicki> agronholm: we will definitely evaluate the 2.7 libs at some point. If it truly turns out to be a small effort, we'll do it.
[3:42] <agronholm> fair enough
[3:43] <jimbaker> the one advantage i see in going with 2.7 is that the most costly part of our process has been betas + RCs
[3:43] <jimbaker> vs the actual development
[3:43] <fwierzbicki> jimbaker: true enough
[3:44] <jimbaker> in any event, i have been incredibly impressed by the progress so far on 2.6 - it reminds me of when we made the switch to 2.5 with the asm branch
[3:45] <fwierzbicki> jimbaker: this has been (and is continuing to be) a very good PyCon for Jython development
[3:46] <jimbaker> yeah, wished i could be there right now!
[3:47] <fwierzbicki> jimbaker: me too - but next year I'm sure I'll make it to the sprints
[3:47] <fwierzbicki> since I knew I wasn't going to be at the sprints I basically pre-sprinted
[3:48] <fwierzbicki> I'm happy I was able to get things started
[3:48] <jimbaker> a good chance that we will be sprinting on 3.x next year
[3:48] <fwierzbicki> +1 to that
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[8:36] <Oti> i am sprinting on the math module (if no one objects)
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[11:31] <juneau001> Do we have an updated RoadMap (including what is currently being worked on) anywhere? I see that Philip updated the roadmap on the wiki (http://wiki.python.org/jython/RoadMap), but I was looking for something to help out on for 2.6. I don't want to start on something that is already being worked on.
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[12:32] <Oti> juneau001 - not that i know of
[12:32] <Oti> but i suggest we keep track on the wiki roadmap page
[12:33] <juneau001> oti: Thanks...I agree about keeping track. I'd like to start working on something, but not sure where to start right now.
[12:33] <juneau001> Been working on django-jython for the sprint (not at PyCon)
[12:38] <Oti> my focus is on the failing tests for the moment, currently the math module
[12:39] <Oti> i added that to a 'who is doing what' section in http://wiki.python.org/jython/RoadMap
[12:40] <Oti> i remember we had a discussion at JavaOne about the documentation which is not 2.6 compatible, am i right?
[13:23] <juneau001> Oti: yes, the documentation will need to be updated
[13:24] <juneau001> We actually started the Jython docs with the Python 2.6 documentation set because that was the first set that used restructured text.
[13:24] <juneau001> I've pulled quite a few of the 2.6 features out to suit the 2.5.x releases
[13:25] <juneau001> I will need to re-align the doc-set for 2.6 to ensure that it includes all of the 2.6 features that Jython supports...and that it excludes any features that Jython does not support, such as the GIL
[13:25] <agronholm> something about that GIL has been bugging me for some time
[13:26] <agronholm> it has been shown that fine grained locking slows down cpython enough to make GIL faster for single threaded apps
[13:26] <agronholm> so how does java do it?
[13:26] <agronholm> why doesn't java have such problems with thread synchronization
[13:26] <juneau001> good question for jimbaker
[13:27] <juneau001> he knows the ins and outs of java synchronization and threading
[13:31] <juneau001> I've updated the roadmap ...I will work on docs
[13:33] <juneau001> I'd like to help out elsewhere also...
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[14:28] <Oti> juneau001 - not that i meant you to work on docs alone - that was the first that came to my mind!
[14:31] <juneau001> Oti: No problem...I will definitely work on updating the docs to 2.6. I will keep a running log of what I update...perhaps I will create a separate section on the roadmap for the documentation to mark what section(s) are actively being worked on. That way if someone else wants to pull the docs down and work on them then they can do it.
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[15:25] <brodie> is anyone at pycon still sprinting?
[15:31] <juneau001> migrating jython docset on Sourceforge to Mercurial....
[15:32] <juneau001> brodie: I have not heard from anyone at PyCon today (I am not there)
[15:34] <jimbaker> i believe pjenvey was planning to be there for two days of sprints
[15:37] <brodie> yeah, i saw him the other day. hopefully he'll pop up today
[15:38] <brodie> he mentioned needing help with the hg migration. i'm a bitbucket and mercurial developer, so if you guys need help, let me know
[15:41] <fwierzbicki> brodie: we need help
[15:41] <fwierzbicki> :)
[15:41] <fwierzbicki> brodie: we have a dump of our svn repo that agronholm kindly developed
[15:41] <fwierzbicki> but we need advice on how best to structure ourselves while we have the chance
[15:42] <fwierzbicki> We have 4 lines of development crammed into one repo - pjenvey thinks we should divide into subrepos or something like that
[15:43] <fwierzbicki> the lines are: htdocs, website, installer, jython
[15:43] <fwierzbicki> we also have a sandbox that we don't plan to port
[15:43] <fwierzbicki> (so really 5 lines)
[15:43] <fwierzbicki> brodie: we are looking for people who know hg well for guidance
[15:44] <fwierzbicki> our plan is to join CPython's repository, but we want to pause and make sure we use this migration however we can
[15:44] <fwierzbicki> to clean up
[15:45] <fwierzbicki> brodie: the other thing we'd like (if it is possible) is that we had a couple of very large merges that left my name on the "blame" lines for work I did not do (I did the merge)
[15:45] <fwierzbicki> it's annoying to have to go back to that branch to see who really did the work
[15:46] <brodie> fwierzbicki: you'd probably make those four things separate repos
[15:46] <fwierzbicki> brodie: using subrepo? Or really separate?
[15:47] <brodie> they're the same thing. subrepos are just a fun bonus feature you can use after conversion if you want
[15:47] <brodie> they're useful if you need to sync up multiple repositories and work on them in lock step
[15:47] <brodie> i'm not sure i'd reach for them right away
[15:48] <brodie> as for the merge thing, i'd have to take a look at it to see what you mean
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[15:56] <juneau001> fwierzbicki: Anything in particular that could use some help? I've been working on side-projects (django-jython and jython docs), but could work on something for 2.6 too.
[15:59] <fwierzbicki> jueau001: finding a unit test that you want to fix will work - I agree that we should mark the one we are working on on that wiki page.
[15:59] <fwierzbicki> the regrtest works with around 250 successes and about 100 skips/failures
[16:00] <fwierzbicki> I plan to work on test_int.py b/c it involves some parsing trouble
[16:00] <juneau001> ok
[16:01] <juneau001> I will take a look and find a unit test to work on
[16:01] <juneau001> I'll update the wiki when I've found one
[16:01] <juneau001> thanks
[16:01] <fwierzbicki> jueau001: no problem!
[16:01] <juneau001> The jython docs have been converted to hg
[16:01] <juneau001> use http://jythondocs.hg.sourceforge.net:8000/hgroot/jythondocs/jythondocs (read-only)
[16:02] <juneau001> Or for r/w: ssh://username@jythondocs.hg.sourceforge.net/hgroot/jythondocs/jythondocs (read/write)
[16:02] <juneau001> Easy to migrate since there was only one commit :)
[16:04] <fwierzbicki> weird: apparently the wiki allow anonymous updates
[16:06] <juneau001> yeah, it does
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[17:13] <jimbaker> fwiw - i spoke with both bitbucket and sourceforge. if we are interested in getting off roundup, they will help us port
[17:14] <jimbaker> i personally would really like to get off roundup
[17:17] <agronholm> is roundup the bug tracker?
[17:18] <jimbaker> agronholm, yes
[17:18] <agronholm> okay
[17:19] <agronholm> yeah, that has to be one of the worst bug trackers I've ever seen
[17:19] <jimbaker> it's a bug tracker that has only two users - cpython and jython
[17:19] <brodie> mercurial uses it as well, unfortunately
[17:19] <jimbaker> make that at least 3 then ;)
[17:19] <brodie> we're debating switching to trac
[17:19] <agronholm> bitbucket's is very good
[17:19] <agronholm> trac is okay
[17:20] <agronholm> jira and redmine are perhaps the best ones around
[17:20] <brodie> atlasian would probably give you a free jira license if you wanted
[17:20] <agronholm> yes, they give out free licenses to FOSS projects
[17:21] <jimbaker> we already use their confluence product
[17:21] <jimbaker> sorry, not that one
[17:21] <jimbaker> fisheye
[17:22] <brodie> well, i personally recommend bitbucket, but i might be a bit biased :)
[17:22] <agronholm> bitbucket's issue tracker is very good, but no match to the dedicated bug tracker products
[17:23] <brodie> yeah, it's meant to be basic
[17:23] <jimbaker> we need solid support for bug triage (i like kanban views), and attaching bugs to feature branches. code review support would be nice
[17:24] <jimbaker> to be honest, i personally like launchpad for this - a bit of a learning curve, but very functional especially with some recent kanban support
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[17:52] <pjenvey> ok sorry if im repeating anything I was disconnected
[17:52] <pjenvey> juneau001 - i have some low hanging fruit if you want to fix some tests
[17:52] <pjenvey> or higher hanging ones, hehe
[17:53] <pjenvey> we have Dmitri from jetbrains workign on new str.format support, he's making good progress
[17:53] <pjenvey> yyamano is making progress on cjkcodecs
[17:53] <pjenvey> jenkins has all the failures indexed now http://bob.underboss.org:8080/
[17:54] <agronholm> pjenvey: any new approaches to bz2?
[17:54] <agronholm> you may remember the troubles with apache's bz2 implementation
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[17:54] <juneau001> pjenvey: which tests...
[17:56] <juneau001> Looking through regrtests now
[17:56] <pjenvey> agronholm - nothing new yet. i say just make it happen without the streaming support for now
[17:56] <pjenvey> would be a good first step
[17:56] <pjenvey> juneau001 - 2 really easy ones would be test_xrange and test_complex
[17:56] <pjenvey> xrange just needs pickle support (probably needs a __reduce__ method added, i'd double check if there's one defined in cpython 2.6)
[17:57] <juneau001> ok, I can take those
[17:57] <pjenvey> or maybe updating copy_reg or those crazy related pickle modules would fix it, i'm not quite sure yet
[17:57] <agronholm> pjenvey: remind me -- was modifying the original code an option, licensing wise?
[17:57] <juneau001> ok, thanks...I will check it out
[17:57] <pjenvey> and test_complex looks straightforward, it's just adding a couple new things to complex parsing, I think that all lives in PyString.__complex__
[17:57] <pjenvey> lack of str.format also breaks that test but don't worry about that
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[17:58] <juneau001> alright, sounds good
[17:58] <pjenvey> agronholm - yea, it's apache license
[17:58] <pjenvey> iirc
[17:59] <agronholm> the newer version of it was licensed under apache 2.0, I recall that was problematic
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[18:00] <agronholm> the crux of the (technical) problem was that the BZip2File class had to know when it has enough data to feed to the decompressor
[18:00] <agronholm> but that was impossible without interaction with the decompressor itself
[18:04] <pjenvey> i think i've somewhat talked about that on http://bugs.jython.org/issue1445
[18:05] <pjenvey> hrmm someone linked to a pure python bz2 implementation, i hadn't noticed
[18:05] <agronholm> oh
[18:06] <agronholm> we probably want a java implementation, but it'd nice to have as a starting point
[18:06] <pjenvey> re low hanging fruit, another one was PyLock lacking some methods, most notably __enter__/__exit__ but it seems to lack some others that might not be tested
[18:06] <pjenvey> might as well make it use exposed annotations too while you're in there
[18:07] <pjenvey> also porting builtin next from CPython, probably 25 lines of code that will end up being 15 lines of java =]
[18:07] <pjenvey> 25 lines of c code that is
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[18:11] <jimbaker> pjenvey, that looks like an oversight re thread.PyLock - should be the same solution as _threading.Lock, with respect to the use of the ContextManager for performance
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[18:24] <pjenvey> yea that's right, I remember you rewrote that for threading
[18:24] <pjenvey> maybe that needs to live in modules.thread? and threading imports it from thread, I thought that's what cpython did
[18:24] <pjenvey> some kind of redunancy there
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[19:14] <juneau001> underway with test_complex
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[19:25] <jimbaker> pjenvey, agreed on the refactoring makes sense
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[19:34] <pjenvey> fwierzbicki, agronholm - does ignoring the sandbox really solve the issue dirkjan ran into? looking at the issue dirkjan logged, i don't see how sandbox is quite involved
[19:35] <pjenvey> i mean, you did the convert with hg convert as opposed to hgsubversion anyway, so maybe you don't know the answer
[19:35] <agronholm> which issue
[19:35] <agronholm> or rather, what issue
[19:36] <fwierzbicki> agronholm: non-trunk branches fail with hgsubversion
[19:36] <fwierzbicki> and we have a lot of non trunk branches
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[19:36] <agronholm> isn't hgsubversion quite old and unsupported?
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[19:36] <fwierzbicki> probably hgsubversion would do a better job of applying our merges in an hg style way - but I would rather get to hg faster vs fix those problems now.
[19:37] <pjenvey> agronholm - no, it still does a better conversion than hg convert
[19:37] <pjenvey> AFAICT
[19:37] <pjenvey> let me ask brodie more
[19:37] <agronholm> were there issues with the converted repo?
[19:37] <fwierzbicki> agronholm: only that it did not fix some ugliness that we have due to non-trunk branches
[19:38] <fwierzbicki> agronholm: blame shows my name next to work I did not do in trunk
[19:38] <agronholm> what ugliness
[19:38] <agronholm> oh?
[19:38] <fwierzbicki> because of the simple way svn does merges
[19:38] <agronholm> well that would probably require hand editing the history
[19:38] <pjenvey> fwierzbicki - yea, we can't solve that. but whatever, i've seen similar commtis in cpython's hg repo
[19:38] <fwierzbicki> we had a couple of long lived branches -- particularly the asm branch
[19:38] <agronholm> which can get hairy
[19:39] <agronholm> probably not worth the effort
[19:39] <pjenvey> basically we'd need a tool that figures out svnmerge info, and nobody's made that tool. and i'm not quite sure it could even be done all that well
[19:39] <fwierzbicki> that's what I think - pjenvey: have we seen any issues with the "hg convert" style move?
[19:40] <pjenvey> fwierzbicki - no but brodie highly recommends the use of hgsubversion because it does a better job
[19:40] <fwierzbicki> pjenvey: hmmm - but I'm sure that bug will still block us
[19:41] <pjenvey> fwierzbicki - i don't know much about the failed conversion with it, you mentioned 'non trunk branches' fail, does that mean all of them?
[19:41] <pjenvey> or is it maybe just some certain branches
[19:41] <agronholm> pjenvey: I initially used the hg-svn extension which included more info, but had to use hg->hg conversion to strip out the sandbox
[19:41] <fwierzbicki> pjenvey: I believe it is all of them
[19:41] <agronholm> that also stripped out all of the svn info in the process
[19:41] <agronholm> like svn externals
[19:41] <agronholm> dunno what else
[19:42] <fwierzbicki> pjenvey: according to dirkjan any non trunk branch fails -- and since that bug is still open I expect it's still the same
[19:42] <fwierzbicki> that was a year ago though
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[20:17] <Oti> wrapping my head around the differences of nan, inf, -inf
[20:17] <Oti> but i hope that java handles it almost the way python does
[20:18] <agronholm> it should
[20:18] <agronholm> hm not quite
[20:18] <agronholm> 4 / 0 raises an exception
[20:19] <agronholm> java would just give me inf
[20:20] <Oti> i have one failing line in test_math.py passing in the interactive interpreter, so it should be doable
[20:20] <agronholm> actually I have no idea how to get an "infinite" value in Python
[20:20] <Oti> float('inf')
[20:21] <agronholm> oh
[20:21] <Oti> i did not know until i looked at test_math.py
[20:21] <Oti> :-)
[20:21] <agronholm> 4 / float('inf') == 0.0
[20:21] <agronholm> makes sense
[20:21] <agronholm> so why then does 4 / 0.0 not return float('inf')?
[20:22] <agronholm> like it does on java
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[20:26] <pjenvey> divide by zero doesn't seem like a bad result either
[20:26] <pjenvey> brodie and I are going to take a deeper look at the conversion problems with hgsubversion
[20:27] <agronholm> at least it's easy to special case
[20:27] <pjenvey> so to be continued
[20:27] <pjenvey> but it's great that he's helping
[20:28] <pjenvey> Dmitri left but he posted what he's done so far for str.format here: http://bugs.jython.org/issue1718 woohoo
[20:28] <pjenvey> he said he might continue with it if he has the time
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[21:53] <pjenvey> FYI I'm working on abc support incase anyone was wanting to tackle it
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[23:28] <fwierzbicki> pjenvey: FYI - I was mistaken about abc.py _abcoll.py, and _weakrefset.py - they all actually came from CPython, so we could just as well put them in our CPythonLib.includes.
[23:28] <fwierzbicki> and remove the ones I pulled from PyPy
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[23:28] <fwierzbicki> since they are 2.7
[23:28] * fwierzbicki -> dinner
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