#jython IRC Log (v0.9)


IRC Log for 2010-11-11

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[3:13] <bowenl2> i enjoy jython
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[6:25] <bowenl2> i'm sorry to see nobody here shares my enthusiasm for jython. i would suspect that an irc channel in freenode would probably be the most enthusiastic place to gather and discuss open source stuff.
[6:31] <agronholm> bowenl2: you haven't actually said anything that warrants commenting
[6:32] <bowenl2> so usually i actually use netbeans for java development, but part of this project got developed in python, then i remembered i love python and that it's hard-ish to deploy and doesn't have stuff like jdbc obviously
[6:33] <bowenl2> so it's ending up being in jython, which i'm now enthusiastic about. is eclipse less bad with pydev less bad than netbeans?
[6:33] <agronholm> I understand that pydev > netbeans
[6:33] <agronholm> I use pydev myself
[6:34] <agronholm> although pydev has dozens of bugs
[6:34] <bowenl2> like with netbeans, when you have a class inherit from another class with its python support it can't even figure out the autocomplete for the inherited methods
[6:34] <agronholm> that's what I mean
[6:35] <bowenl2> and i'm really lazy and this is getting in the way of both my laziness and productivity at the same time, paradoxically
[6:35] <bowenl2> so i decided to go on irc
[6:35] <agronholm> I know what you mean
[6:36] <agronholm> I once tried to get the pydev source and fix the problems myself but I couldn't figure it out
[6:36] <agronholm> I've never done any eclipse plugin development
[6:36] <agronholm> so it was way over my head
[6:37] <bowenl2> i admire ibm for taking on the insane task of implementing a cross platform gui for java that actually rendered native widgets and has a decent interface
[6:38] <bowenl2> but if you actually try to deploy something with rcp, jface and swt (which has a platform dependent jar), over the internet, it's not cool
[6:38] <bowenl2> it's lotsa megabytes
[6:39] <agronholm> and at least on my ubuntu, swt suffers from strange issues
[6:40] <agronholm> like if the screen saver activates and I deactivate it, I can't type unless I unfocus and then focus eclipse again
[6:40] <bowenl2> on mine, swing suffers from having its menus not outlined at all, and the background of the menu is white, as is the white background of the textarea i'm typing in
[6:41] <agronholm> is that on the default theme or the gtk+ theme?
[6:41] <bowenl2> it was the default on 10.04
[6:42] <bowenl2> yeah one of the themes works correctly for that but had one other issue i can't remember about
[6:42] <agronholm> the "system" theme has the same issues as you described
[6:43] <bowenl2> i should actually fix this issue but programming is hard
[6:43] <agronholm> yes...
[6:44] <bowenl2> sincerely though, jython is awesome except for the fact that i just discovered it's unbelievably slow in general. how the heck does it implement multiple inheritance and yet be run on the jvm?!?!
[6:47] <agronholm> yeah it is slow
[6:47] <agronholm> and it does not implement multiple inheritance for java classes
[6:47] <agronholm> you can only inherit from multiple python superclasses
[6:47] <bowenl2> ohhhhh gotcha
[6:48] <bowenl2> what about a java and some python classes
[6:48] <bowenl2> like a jframe and a bunch of stuff
[6:48] <agronholm> one java + multiple python = ok
[6:48] <agronholm> I do that a lot
[6:48] <bowenl2> whoever programmed this is completely insane
[6:48] <agronholm> or multiple java interfaces, that's ok too of course
[6:48] <bowenl2> it's actually brilliant
[6:49] <agronholm> and filled with compromises and workarounds
[6:51] <bowenl2> that sounds like the dating scene at an engineering university
[6:52] <bowenl2> especially as a computer science major
[6:52] <bowenl2> i can't believe how familiar i am with jython already!
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[20:37] <cyril_> Hi eveybody !
[20:40] <cyril_> So, I have this pretty big Python library that I would love to use in a Java program, and I thought jython would come in handy. Though it makes it easy to use Java code inside Python code, the opposite seems a little bit more difficult. Do I realy have to write a factory or use the Python Interpreter, as I have read on the Web ?
[20:41] <agronholm> yes
[20:41] <agronholm> java is a clumsy language
[20:42] <agronholm> that's why jython exists
[20:42] <cyril_> Oh, Java really is not my cup of tea :p
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[20:44] <cyril_> Using the PythonInterpreter java class would not force me to do huge modifications to the Python library code, since I could use the execfile() method, but do you think I could easily use the library (almost as if it was a Java one) ?
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[22:08] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: It depends on your container.
[22:08] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: Some containers (e.g. Spring, Mule) already have JSR-223 support included.
[22:09] <cyril_> I'm not exactly familiar with Java nor that notion of "containers". Could you give me some pointers ?
[22:10] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: Sure.
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[22:11] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: Will this run in a stand-alone application, on a server, where? What's the Java part about?
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[22:16] <cyril_> Basically, a friend of mine is hacking on a Java project, which aims at providing braille partitions for blind people. It uses XML files (the musicxml format). She needs to be able to print the partition, by generating a file in some weird format. She found a Python toolkit that does the job, and would love to be able to use it in Java instead of having to rewrite the toolkit in Java. So it is basically a standalone application.
[22:16] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: OKi.
[22:16] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: Why not use it in Python?
[22:16] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: It makes no sense to add a Java layer to this if you aren't proficient at it yet.
[22:17] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: You'll get better performance and fewer moving parts if you keep it in Python.
[22:17] <cyril_> Well, since the whole application is written in Java, she only has two options
[22:17] <pr3d4t0r> . . .
[22:17] <cyril_> 1) Use the toolkit "as is", even if it needs some kludging
[22:17] <cyril_> 2) Rewrite the toolkit in Java :(
[22:17] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: Oh, got it.
[22:18] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: Yeah, I got it.
[22:18] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: Check these before you go further:
[22:18] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: 1. For what version of Java is the Braille program? You want Java 6 as the minimum requirement.
[22:19] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: 2. Identify if this is a stand-alone or web app.
[22:19] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: 3. If it's a web app, find out if it's running on a container like Tomcat or something else.
[22:19] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: 4. If it's in a container, find out if they're using Spring.
[22:19] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: Then you have 2 choices:
[22:20] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: a) If it's stand-alone, then just use the javax.scripting.* classes (you want the scripting factory) for creating the Jython instance, then bring the code in, and you're good to go.
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[22:21] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: b) If it's in a container with Spring, you can add Jython support on a configuration file with minimal grief; something like: <bean:scriptinng source='mypythonicstuff.py' engine='jython' /> and the code is automagically available to you.
[22:24] <cyril_> pr3d4t0r, Well, it's a standalone application that runs with the latest version of Java, so I'll probably go with the javax.scripting.* classes, it seems great.
[22:25] <cyril_> it seems to be a nice way of doing what I need, though it may not be that clean :p
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[23:05] <cyril_> pr3d4t0r, Should setting my classpath to the directory where jython.jar can be found be enough ?
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[23:10] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: Yes, add jython.jar to the classpath.
[23:11] <pr3d4t0r> cyril_: Then package all your .py classes in a separate .jar file and add that to the classpath as well.
[23:13] <cyril_> pr3d4t0r, Well, I've listed all Script Engines known by Java, and it only knows the ECMAScript engine, though I'm adding jython.jar and jython-engine.jar to the classpath
[23:13] <cyril_> pr3d4t0r, Gonna be a long night.
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[23:20] <jimbaker> bowenl2: glad to hear you like jython
[23:20] <jimbaker> we are making some efforts to improve its performance significantly. shanka is working with me on this project
[23:22] <jimbaker> we are not ready yet to say how much improvement. but we are in the process of some experiments with respect to what could be gained by type specialization and invokedynamic. jython's code objects (much like cpython's) gives us a lot of flexibility in doing this incrementally
[23:22] <jimbaker> hopefully we will have some interesting results by pycon
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[23:29] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: invokedynamic is like waiting for Godot in Java.
[23:29] <jimbaker> pr3d4t0r: not necessarily
[23:29] <jimbaker> there's an implementation available for java 6
[23:30] <jimbaker> it will give us the polymorphic cache support that jruby has had to build independently; and if we use an agent approach, comparable performance to java 7 today
[23:31] <jimbaker> that will diverge as the java 7 builds get better, but it's still pretty good
[23:31] <jimbaker> and much better than what we have in jython today
[23:33] <jimbaker> pr3d4t0r: basically what will happen w/ java 7 is that the premise of indy is to get much better inlining
[23:33] <jimbaker> now if this were to support jython or jruby only, i would think you would see very little progress. but the real reason for indy is almost certainly for app servers. and that's something oracle cares a great deal about
[23:35] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Agreed.
[23:35] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: I'm just tired of waiting ;)
[23:35] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: I was playing with calibre this morning; 100% Python. Very nice app.
[23:35] <jimbaker> pr3d4t0r: as a jython implementer, i must be patient :)
[23:36] <jimbaker> it's a long slog to get this stuff out, and then even more, much more, to see it adopted
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[23:57] <cyril_> pr3d4t0r, Works like a charm, thanks !
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