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[16:30] <jimbaker> Oti: so i'm still working on readline fixes. given that we were both out in the mountains, with less connectivity than desired last weekend, and the fact that it's thursday already - i guess that puts RC1 to this friday/weekend
[16:30] <jimbaker> anyone else here have any thoughts on RC1 timing?
[16:32] <jimbaker> there's also http://bugs.jython.org/issue1663 which should be fixed
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[20:33] <jimbaker> so i have a thought i'd like to try out here. what if we did 2.6.0 in approx 6 months from now, with a 2.6.x every 6 months thereafter. instead of a full 2.6 w/ stdlib, this will be core language changes (like ABC support), API tweaking, plus invokedynamic
[20:34] <jimbaker> in the past, we would call this an alpha...
[20:35] <jimbaker> but given our test suite, i think we can describe this as being production ready, just limited in scope
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[21:43] <fwierzbicki> I'm not really a fan of a 2.6 w/o the libs -- we have many years of history where 2.6 is defined by compatibility
[21:43] <fwierzbicki> if we want to do a 2.5.3 that includes some 2.6 features, that would be ok
[21:44] <fwierzbicki> but I really don't want to ship a 2.6 w/o the 2.6 lib
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[21:52] <fwierzbicki> although I see you are ok with calling it an alpha -- *that's* ok with me
[21:52] <fwierzbicki> oh wait you are *not* ok with calling it an alpha....
[21:53] <fwierzbicki> That puts me back to being ok w/ calling it 2.5.x
[21:53] <fwierzbicki> but adding some 2.6 features in
[21:53] <fwierzbicki> I think we would get too many bug reports about missing 2.6 features
[21:53] <fwierzbicki> in the past we have encouraged bugs for any incompatibility
[21:54] <fwierzbicki> I think changing course and putting out incomplete 2.6 releases w/ large missing feature sets would just confuse users too much
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[22:58] <jimbaker> fwierzbicki: the challenge here is that conservatively i think a complete 2.6 is going to be 18 months
[22:58] <jimbaker> one thing that we want to do with 2.6 is support invokedynamic, be on java 6, and change the java api
[23:00] <jimbaker> in contrast, a narrowly defined 2.6.0 could be the standard library that readily works
[23:01] <jimbaker> maybe i'm wrong about 18 months. but i think if we make it 6 months, whatever we have at each 6 month cycle, that potentially could add some excitement and momentum
[23:02] <jimbaker> regardless, we won't be able to call this 2.5.3 by our current convention because of the breaking changes
[23:02] <jimbaker> maybe call it 2.6 preview ? ;)
[23:05] <fwierzbicki> maybe.... I'm assuming your 18 months is largely due to invokedymanic, etc right?
[23:05] <jimbaker> no, i'm basing it on how long the release cycles with 2.5.x took for stdlib support
[23:05] <fwierzbicki> I remember switching from the 2.4 lib to 2.5 lib was relatively quick
[23:05] <fwierzbicki> ah
[23:06] <jimbaker> i think invokedynamic will be quite easy
[23:06] <fwierzbicki> either thing breaks are conventions though....
[23:07] <jimbaker> maybe the right thing to do is simpler
[23:07] <jimbaker> we will cut over 2.6 and see how much progress we make
[23:07] <fwierzbicki> once a 2.5 is out and we switch trunk to 2.6 we can see how it goes and decide?
[23:07] <fwierzbicki> yeah what you said :)
[23:07] <jimbaker> it's possible we have no choice in this matter so long as we remain unfunded
[23:08] <fwierzbicki> sure - things will necessarily be a bit slower
[23:08] <fwierzbicki> I'm hoping that the more straightforward challenges of a 2.6 might attract some help....
[23:09] <jimbaker> i do think invokedynamic and performance is key to getting sufficient attention to drive a company to fund us
[23:09] <fwierzbicki> sure.... perf is sexy -- but also a difficult task
[23:09] <jimbaker> one thing we need to do is set up a speed center
[23:10] <jimbaker> something like http://speed.pypy.org/ - actually we can just use their code
[23:10] <fwierzbicki> that sounds good
[23:12] <fwierzbicki> For my personal work I think I'm most motivated to work on getting the lib going -- I know you are most interested in the performance and concurrency
[23:12] <pjenvey> the pypy would be up for running jython on their speed.pypy.org machine, we just need to send them a patch to get it running
[23:12] <pjenvey> s/pypy/pypy folks/
[23:12] <fwierzbicki> pjenvey: that's cool
[23:12] <jimbaker> pjenvey: that sounds very good. i'm sure they would love to see cross comparison with jython too
[23:13] <jimbaker> so we can get some sort of race going
[23:13] <jimbaker> :)
[23:13] <fwierzbicki> ha
[23:13] <jimbaker> there was some talk about they need a competitor on #pypy earlier today
[23:13] <fwierzbicki> pjenvey: I keep forgetting to arrange a meetup -- I'm local to SF now
[23:13] <jimbaker> now that unladen swallow is no longer there
[23:13] <fwierzbicki> pjenvey: I mean meet up with you, not a big thing :)
[23:13] <pjenvey> fijal pointed me to http://codespeak.net/svn/pypy/build/bot2/pypybuildbot/builds.py, that runs their benchmark
[23:14] <pjenvey> fwierzbicki - yea, I heard you were local from tobias. one of these days, I've been busy lately
[23:14] <jimbaker> so it sounds like one of the first things we should do next week
[23:14] <fwierzbicki> pjenvey: I totally understand about being busy :)
[23:14] <jimbaker> i don't see why RC1 will not be complete fby this weekend
[23:15] <fwierzbicki> jimbaker: that would be *very* cool
[23:15] <pjenvey> re the 2.6 without stdlib idea, I don't really like it. but I'd rather wait to start on 2.6 work like you said, to get a rough idea of how long the 2.6 stdlib will take
[23:16] <jimbaker> pjenvey: fair enough. let's start the work now and eval in maybe 3 months
[23:16] <pjenvey> sounds good
[23:17] <jimbaker> meanwhile, i really would like to get the 2.6 branch restarted. fwierzbicki, how much is in there already? just ast stuff?
[23:18] <fwierzbicki> jimbaker: really just a grammar + some ast support
[23:18] <fwierzbicki> I dusted it off a couple of weekends ago
[23:18] <jimbaker> very cool!
[23:18] <fwierzbicki> It's a start :)
[23:19] <jimbaker> glad to hear the branch is ready to go. i think the first thing i will do is break some APIs
[23:19] <jimbaker> around threadstate
[23:20] <jimbaker> the other thing is to figure out our DVCS
[23:20] <fwierzbicki> It does not seem to respond well to merging w/ trunk though -- so many conflicts it is depressing
[23:20] <jimbaker> probably best to just get your diff on AST, then recreate the branch
[23:20] <fwierzbicki> that's what I was thinking yeah
[23:20] <fwierzbicki> but I haven't done it yet
[23:27] <jimbaker> got to run. this was a good discussion
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