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[4:10] <jimbaker> i would like to propose that we do a final triage of bugs for 2.5.2, to get beta 2 out. http://bugs.jython.org/issue1327 is the one blocker i see for beta 2, due to the resource leaks (from classloaders being ref)
[4:11] <jimbaker> in previous triages, we used the bug priority as the filter for the process. i don't recall specifically what we did then, but something like
[4:11] <jimbaker> urgent - blocker for beta 2
[4:12] <NoobFukaire> is jython commercially supported in anyway?
[4:12] <jimbaker> and high - blocker for RCs - should suffice
[4:13] <jimbaker> NoobFukaire: there is no commercial support per se, although i'm sure someone would be happy to provide consulting support
[4:14] <NoobFukaire> no I meant are there any companies sponsoring development
[4:14] <jimbaker> no, there are no such companies
[4:14] <jimbaker> sun was sponsoring 1 developer resource for a couple of years, however, that ended with the oracle acquisition
[4:15] <NoobFukaire> ah
[4:16] <jimbaker> in addition, google has contributed some code to us, mostly around app engine support as well as support of their indexer
[4:17] <jimbaker> naturally we would welcome any commercial support :)
[4:19] <jimbaker> getting back to triage - i think we are about 10d away from a beta 2
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[11:23] <Kovis> could you please take a look at this issue: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3477440/when-java-program-is-started-using-pythons-subprocess-popen-exits-why-databas
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[15:28] <jbaker_> Kovis: you may want to trying using either os.kill or execnet
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[16:35] <ipatrol> Does 2.5.2 mean it only supports 2.5 constructs?
[16:38] <agronholm> what only supports
[16:38] <agronholm> ?
[16:38] <ipatrol> can I use CPython 2.6 or 2.7 features in Jython?
[16:39] <agronholm> no
[16:39] <agronholm> except for class decorators
[16:39] <ipatrol> what's the roadmap for that then
[16:39] <agronholm> well, the next major version of jython supports at least cpython 2.6 features
[16:40] <ipatrol> getting to 2.6 and then 2.7 will make it easier to transition to Python 3.x
[16:40] <agronholm> I would prefer jython to go straight to 2.7
[16:40] <agronholm> but the project is seriously understaffed
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[16:42] <jbaker_> agronholm: we are always looking for volunteers... :)
[16:42] <agronholm> of course
[16:43] <agronholm> but I doubt I can contribute a lot of time
[16:43] <jbaker_> i think this is the general feeling amongst the committers that going to 2.6, or i should say a 2.6+, will make it a lot easier for people to contribute
[16:46] <jbaker_> most outstanding bugs are tricky. whereas implementing a new data type is not that difficult
[16:46] <ipatrol> mabye we could implement more features in pure jython than in raw java
[16:46] <ipatrol> What we do need as well is a jythonc replacement so people can write web apps
[16:46] <jbaker_> the clamp project is a parallel project that will start after 2.5.2 is released
[16:47] <jbaker_> it will replace the functionality of jythonc
[16:47] <ipatrol> I think however that skipping a version actually would make more sense
[16:47] <ipatrol> we can cover more ground and complete the easy features in 2.7
[16:47] <jbaker_> ipatrol: we may end up doing that. but it's more likely it will be 2.6+, including any such easy features
[16:48] <ipatrol> some of them may only need interfaces to Java classes
[16:48] <ipatrol> 2.6-7 ?
[16:50] <jbaker_> a good example of a pure jython approach was seen in our threading module
[16:51] <ipatrol> instead of getting tangled up in Java
[16:51] <jbaker_> we ended up eventually wrapping some of this in java instead, but basically so we could have better inlining
[17:01] <ipatrol> I think we need to write a roadmap for the rest of our 2.x versions
[17:01] <ipatrol> to lay the groundwork for the 3.x transition
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[17:02] <jbaker_> ipatrol: here are 2.7 features i could see desirable in a 2.6+ - dict/set comprehensions, multiple context managers, ordered dicts, dictionary views, memoryview, float repr, argparse
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[17:03] <jbaker_> some of these are just nice, others would help with the c ext api in terms of supporting numpy, and then there's better mapping to java
[17:05] <jbaker_> for our 2.5 release, the only 2.6 feature that took any time was mutable ASTs - we added that to support sympy and mako
[17:05] <ipatrol> however, a lot of python mimics and is related to the C interface
[17:06] <ipatrol> why can't we use a more java-like way of doing things in the stdlib?
[17:06] <jbaker_> that sounds like a diff language then
[17:06] <ipatrol> instead of these various constants in places like the os module that are not needed for java
[17:06] <ipatrol> mabye have both?
[17:07] <ipatrol> through a jython package?
[17:07] <jbaker_> well, i think the point of jython is you can just import in java libraries for that sort of thing
[17:07] <jbaker_> one thing i would add, off the top of my head, is a collections.fromjava factory
[17:07] <jbaker_> (i'm sure there are better names)]
[17:08] <ipatrol> think about how Java handles files
[17:08] <jbaker_> so you can create for example a dict that is backed by a HashMap instead of a ConcurrentHashMap
[17:08] <ipatrol> it's more like Python's io module is now
[17:09] <jbaker_> anything that supports Map/ConcurrentMap - but it doesn't have py <=> java being performed as it moves back & forth
[17:09] <ipatrol> in fact, Python 3.x actually make the builtin open() function an alias for io.open()
[17:10] <ipatrol> we can implement io in Java/Jython as well and therefore have a closer interface to the JVM
[17:11] <jbaker_> could be a useful pypi package
[17:12] <jbaker_> one goal for clamp is that it will allow for exposing types outside of the main jython impl
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[17:13] <jbaker_> this will allow for more community experimentation, which can then be adopted by jython proper as it makes sense
[17:15] <ipatrol> by subclassing java classes and giving them a python interface, we can work closer to the JVM and reduce parsing time
[17:19] <jbaker_> to get closer to the jvm requires better support of inlining. http://wiki.python.org/jython/PythonTypesInJava describes one part of this
[17:19] <jbaker_> when everything works out, this can go actually to native performance. the challenge is to make that happen more often
[17:20] <ipatrol> closer to the metal as non-vm programmers would say
[17:20] <jbaker_> yes
[17:21] <ipatrol> CPython has it's api
[17:21] <jbaker_> which we will be implementing
[17:21] <ipatrol> a C api in Java? 0_0
[17:21] <jbaker_> yes
[17:22] <ipatrol> some parser?
[17:22] <jbaker_> no. just support of the c ext api itself, through jni
[17:22] <jbaker_> we have a subset of ctypes workign now
[17:22] <jbaker_> it's actually more difficult (probably) than the c ext api
[17:23] <jbaker_> and you can always use JNA, which resembles ctypes (and is modeled from it as i understand)
[17:23] <ipatrol> in a lot of translation schemes, I often consider creating data structures and classes rather than a simple lexical translation
[17:23] <ipatrol> encapsulation
[17:24] <jbaker_> both ironpython and pypy now have some support for the c ext api, and this would allow for direct support of numpy, for example
[17:24] <jbaker_> it really doesn't work that way here
[17:24] <jbaker_> there are some other alternatives such as cross compiling binary to java bytecode
[17:25] <ipatrol> well, we have jni, the api libraries probably need to be in C to give a CPython interface to the JNI
[17:25] <jbaker_> but i don't think the approach you mentioned would work
[17:25] <ipatrol> ctypes does exactly that
[17:25] <ipatrol> uses classes to encapsulate C data structures
[17:26] <jbaker_> ok, maybe i misunderstood your strategy earlier - definitely don't want to try to write a c compiler :)
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[17:27] <ipatrol> no, just create an abstraction layer on both sides of the jni
[17:29] <ipatrol> but I think we do need a new roadmap for the future up to 3.0
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[17:58] <jbaker_> ipatrol: agreed on roadmap. first priority however is 2.5.2 beta. then we can discuss 2.6+, clamp in a roadmap
[17:59] <jbaker_> btw, did anyone see my triage discussion from last night?
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