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[11:21] <topi`> Cannot find file /home/topi/jython/Include (bad symlink)
[11:21] <topi`> what's this Include dir and do I need it??
[11:21] <topi`> I tried to set up a venv with virtualenv -p jython newvenv
[11:21] <topi`> oh, and it cannot find pip ... but I thought virtualenv *came* with pip anyway
[11:23] <agronholm> topi`: noap
[11:24] <agronholm> most people install virtualenv with pip though
[11:24] <topi`> right, I shall choose that route
[11:24] <topi`> but I need a virtualenv for my django installation
[11:25] <topi`> oh, python 2.7.7 has been released
[11:25] <topi`> I noticed it while doing apt-get upgrade
[11:33] <topi`> wow, a huge number of fixes there.
[11:43] <topi`> it seems I need to make jython aware of the stuff installed in /usr/lib/python2.7 if I want to get pip working
[11:44] <topi`> hmm, pip sits in dist-packages, not site-packages... n
[11:44] <agronholm> jython is supposed to work without a CPython installation
[11:45] <topi`> yes, but I installed pip (and virtualenv) via get-pip.py
[11:45] <agronholm> so?
[11:45] <topi`> hmm, maybe I should have run those with jython instaed
[11:45] <agronholm> surely you did it like: jython get-pip.py
[11:45] <agronholm> oh, you didn't :/
[11:45] <topi`> I'll try
[11:45] <agronholm> that won't work with stock jython 2.7b2
[11:45] <topi`> I really should have a peek at the jython launcher, to see what kind of paths it sets up there
[11:46] <topi`> I thought jimbaker fixed pip?
[11:46] <agronholm> yes but I doubt the stock get-pip gets you jim's fixed version
[11:46] <topi`> ok
[11:46] <agronholm> last I checked, the PR for html5lib requires CJK support from jython which will only come with b4
[11:47] <agronholm> jython 2.7b4 that is
[11:47] <agronholm> so, no easy pip support for 2.7b3
[11:47] <topi`> duh
[11:47] <topi`> well, I guess I can also go down the easy_install route
[11:53] <topi`> from com.ibm.icu.text import Normalizer
[11:53] <topi`> ImportError: No module named ibm
[11:54] <topi`> what's this? isn't it supposed to be included in the jyton.jar?
[11:56] <agronholm> yes it is
[11:56] <topi`> I downloaded the "standalone installer"
[11:56] <topi`> of jyton 2.7 beta 2
[11:56] <topi`> it's 2 MB bigger than the jython.jar installer ;)
[11:56] <agronholm> there is only one installer IIRC
[11:57] <topi`> there's two at jython.org/downloads.html
[11:57] <topi`> jy2.5 has even more installers )
[11:57] <topi`> :)
[11:57] <agronholm> yes -- I wonder how I could get Josh to figure that out
[11:58] <agronholm> or whoever it is who constantly updates the jython.org wrong or late
[11:58] <agronholm> +downloads page
[11:58] <topi`> d'oh
[11:58] <agronholm> if the jar says "installer" in it, then it's the installer
[11:59] <agronholm> otherwise not
[11:59] <topi`> but - if it's the installer, then it should *do* something when run with java -jar , right?
[11:59] <agronholm> indeed
[11:59] <agronholm> at least the previous versions do
[11:59] <topi`> when I did java -jar installer.jar I got a python prompt.
[11:59] <topi`> so, it's the standalone jython.jar then
[12:00] <agronholm> did you download the "traditional installer"?
[12:00] <agronholm> oh
[12:00] <agronholm> there's no download link for that
[12:00] <topi`> yeah
[12:00] <topi`> so I got the "standalone"
[12:01] <topi`> the download comes from maven repository
[12:02] <agronholm> this requires consultation from either jim or frank
[12:02] <topi`> ok, let's wait for them to get online
[12:02] <topi`> jim is coming to Europe at some point, I reckon
[12:03] <topi`> I just downloaded both of these "installer" links at jython.org, and *none* of them is an installer
[12:04] <topi`> they are interpreter .jars
[12:04] <agronholm> yeah
[12:04] <topi`> ergo, I should just grab the source, build it myself and that will create an installer for me
[12:04] <agronholm> I was about to say that
[12:05] <topi`> but what I'm trying to achieve is to document the steps required to get my django project working as a servlet
[12:05] <topi`> and that requires installing jython ... which seems to be slightly more complicated than I wished. sigh.
[12:05] <agronholm> well you should be using the standalone with a servlet container
[12:05] <topi`> yep
[12:06] <agronholm> installing jython should not be a requirement there
[12:06] <topi`> or else bundle a whole bunch of stuff into the WEB-INF/lib/Lib dir
[12:06] <topi`> servlet *deployment* is different from setting up a build environment for that servlet ;)
[12:06] <agronholm> requiring every web app to run in a servlet container is somewhat of a WTF to me
[12:06] <topi`> I agree
[12:06] <topi`> I guess they're thinking that it makes it easier to switch from one service provider to another
[12:07] <topi`> or maybe it's that most recent buzzword, "PaaS" :)
[12:08] <agronholm> in my opinion, running a python web app in jython is a pretty bad idea
[12:08] <agronholm> for various reasons
[12:08] <topi`> indeed it proved to be sub-optimal
[12:08] <topi`> the servlet takes several seconds before it starts to respond after deployment
[12:08] <topi`> even on a high-end machine
[12:08] <topi`> compare that to deploying Django on any WSGI container
[12:09] <topi`> it's fast, much faster than any tomcat can ever aspire to be
[12:09] <topi`> (I'm talking about deployment/redeployment only)
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[16:50] <jimbaker> topi`, yeah, there's really not much we can do for 2.7.0. it is possible to remove a substantial part of this latency, but not without some significant engineering. a perfect goal for 2.7.1 (or later). also work that would support for 3.x
[16:50] <jimbaker> topi`, one possibility is to look at war-less deploys
[16:50] <jimbaker> much like play does it
[16:53] <agronholm> jimbaker: do you know anything about the lack of installers in 2.7 betas?
[16:53] <agronholm> who packaged and uploaded them to maven?
[16:54] <jimbaker> agronholm, hmmm? i need to look at this in general. plan to blog on the formal announcement for next week for 2.7b3
[16:54] <jimbaker> (was going to do it this week... but i've been busy...)
[16:54] <agronholm> jimbaker: there are no installers available for 2.7 betas
[16:54] <agronholm> not on maven or anywhere else
[16:54] <agronholm> the jython.org download page talks about installers but the jars are not that
[16:54] <jimbaker> re so fwierzbicki put together the beta package in maven
[16:55] <agronholm> did josh update the download page or was it frank?
[16:55] <agronholm> I sometimes wish I had write access to jython.org
[16:56] <jimbaker> agronholm, it's pretty loosely coupled. usually josh updates the download page. frank builds the bits. and the rest of us figure out the source :)
[16:56] <fwierzbicki> This was Josh - it would be easy to get you access if you actually want it agronholm :)
[16:56] <agronholm> fwierzbicki: yes please
[16:56] <jimbaker> s/rest of us/all of us/
[16:57] <agronholm> I can't help much with the code, but I can help with this
[16:57] <jimbaker> agronholm, you are very very very welcome to help here :)
[16:57] <fwierzbicki> Ha ok - I'll have to go dig up how I got it to find the right list so it may take a little while (I have a meeting coming up that I need to prepare for first)
[16:58] <agronholm> fwierzbicki: was the lack of an installer in 2.7 betas deliberate?
[16:58] <agronholm> ie. was the installer broken with 2.7 somehow
[16:58] <fwierzbicki> there are installers
[16:58] <jimbaker> topi`, we should look at adapting this approach - http://www.jamesward.com/2011/08/23/war-less-java-web-apps
[16:58] <agronholm> fwierzbicki: not on maven at least
[16:59] <fwierzbicki> really? I'll go look - maybe something went wrong with the finalization
[17:00] <fwierzbicki> http://search.maven.org/#search|ga|1|g%3A%22org.python%22
[17:00] <fwierzbicki> http://search.maven.org/remotecontent?filepath=org/python/jython-standalone/2.7-b2/jython-standalone-2.7-b2.jar
[17:01] <agronholm> I was looking at the wrong artifact I guess
[17:01] <agronholm> but there are still no links to the installer from the downloads page
[17:01] <fwierzbicki> ah that's not good - Josh is usually really good about that
[17:01] <agronholm> I'm thinking there's no point in advertising the non-standalone jython.jar
[17:02] <agronholm> that's not useful to anyone
[17:02] <agronholm> except maybe maven users
[17:02] <fwierzbicki> Fair enough - and it needs some love to really work for maven types honestly
[17:02] <fwierzbicki> I'll stop advertising it :)
[17:03] <jimbaker> as in splitting up and not using jar jar links?
[17:03] <jimbaker> (an eminently good idea)
[17:03] <agronholm> is jarjar used for the plain jython.jar?
[17:03] <fwierzbicki> I have forgotten what it is exactly - I would have to look - but I don't think it is perfectly that
[17:03] <fwierzbicki> yes jarjar is used
[17:03] <agronholm> yeah, then you have a point
[17:04] <fwierzbicki> otherwise we would run into trouble when using alternate versions of dependencies
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[17:42] <jimbaker> and we have long experience that alternate versions of dependencies will basically break things
[17:44] <jimbaker> (usually on one out of the supported platforms. windows, why? ;)
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[18:50] <whg> Because Windows is the abusive alcoholic uncle of operating systems
[18:50] <whg> It's kernel is so pickled it doesn't know *why* it's doing anything
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