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[21:03] <qkslvrwolf> Nontechnical question: when is 2.7 going to be final, and what's the future of jython look like? Are there any current financial supporters?
[21:04] <agronholm> no financial support right now
[21:04] <qkslvrwolf> shame that.
[21:04] <agronholm> future of jython after 2.7 = probably 3.3
[21:05] <agronholm> and dunno about 2.7
[21:05] <agronholm> there's not even a beta out yet
[21:05] <qkslvrwolf> yeah, saw that
[21:05] <qkslvrwolf> saw an optimistic blog post after 2.7a2, but then it seems to have frozen.
[21:05] <agronholm> the jvm's limitations are kinda depressing
[21:06] <qkslvrwolf> is that what's holding it back? I had wondered, because it's such a wonderfully useful tool...
[21:06] <agronholm> well at least it decreases contributor motivation
[21:07] <agronholm> then there's the whole GIL issue -- Jython uses locks to provide concurrency safety but it's tricky to get right
[21:07] <agronholm> the pypy guys didn't even want to try
[21:07] <pjenvey> jvm is a mixed bag, it is kind of nice writing the internals of python in Java instead of say C
[21:07] <agronholm> so they have an esoteric solution to the problem in the works
[21:08] <pjenvey> but you also run into limitations sometimes, and java integration is another layer of stuff to deal with
[21:08] <pjenvey> lack of financial support and interested developers (with enough free cycles) is what really holds it back
[21:08] <agronholm> I'm neck deep in existing projects (mostly commercial)
[21:09] <agronholm> and pjenvey here has recently been hired to do PyPy work
[21:10] <qkslvrwolf> Gotcha.
[21:11] <qkslvrwolf> Ok. Thanks...that gives me stuff to think about.
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[21:12] <Hukka> Wouldn't 3.4 be the more likely up to date target?
[21:12] <Hukka> Or is there a special reason why 3.3 is a nice choice
[21:13] <agronholm> importlib
[21:13] <agronholm> doing up to 3.4 would most likely involve more work
[21:13] <agronholm> importlib is probably the biggets reason for targeting 3.3 instead of, say, 3.2
[21:14] <agronholm> *biggest
[21:14] <agronholm> I don't know the full story, but I assumed it would solve some of the long standing import troubles wrt java classes and python modules
[21:15] <Hukka> I haven't really checked how jython internals work, so this might be a pretty noob question, but is it parsing the source code and "compiling" into jvm bytecode, or is it using the ast?
[21:16] <agronholm> it compiles into jvm bytecode
[21:16] <pjenvey> it parses to AST, but then we compile to jvm bytecode
[21:16] <agronholm> yes
[21:16] <pjenvey> everything is comiled
[21:16] <agronholm> Hukka: kinda hard to compile without AST :)
[21:16] <pjenvey> jruby on the other hand has an AST walking interpreter, but that interpreter will 'JIT' to jvm bytecodes after enough 'visits'
[21:17] <agronholm> I believe jython's method mirrors cpython closely in this respect
[21:17] <agronholm> there is one very annoying issue here that I'd like to solve, but don't know where to start
[21:18] <agronholm> if I have a binary-only jar (with compiled modules inside), I'll simply get an ImportError when trying to import the stuff
[21:18] <agronholm> if the jython version does not match the one I used to do the compiling with
[21:19] <agronholm> not sure if there's anything that can be done about it
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[21:20] <Hukka> I'm kinda toying with the idea of making a compiler for a subset of python, and wondering if it would make sense to see how Jython does things
[21:20] <Hukka> Or maybe try to see how pypy works
[21:20] <Hukka> Target platform would be Mindstorms NXT
[21:20] <agronholm> well good luck figuring out pypy :)
[21:20] <agronholm> jython is at least somewhat doable by mere mortals...though not easy by any measure
[21:21] <Hukka> And IronPython?
[21:21] <Hukka> Though that I haven't ever even used
[21:21] <agronholm> I don't know much about IronPython
[21:21] <agronholm> it gets mentioned every now and then
[21:22] <agronholm> but I remember that at the last Pycon, almost nobody said a thing about it, but Jython got plenty of mentions
[21:22] <agronholm> and I didn't see anyone sprinting on IronPython either
[21:23] <agronholm> pypy, cpython and jython all got their fair share of people there
[21:23] <Hukka> Ok
[21:23] <Hukka> What about kivy and other tools that make python run on android
[21:24] <Hukka> Do they use jython or something different?
[21:24] <agronholm> no idea
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[21:24] <agronholm> I don't think they use jython
[21:24] <agronholm> jython does not run on dalvik
[21:26] <Hukka> Ok, thanks for the info
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