Timestamps are in GMT/BST.
[0:02] <jimbaker> an alternative is to set JYTHON_OPTS=-i. but do we subshell or is there some other way to do this?
[0:15] <pjenvey_> why don't we properly detect -i in this case anyway?
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[1:30] <jimbaker> pjenvey_: not certain. i did try to route i suggested of try to instantiate a JLineConsole, but as you mentioned previously here, that doesn't pass regrtest (i believe around exec in subprocess)
[1:36] <jimbaker> maybe this is a problem in the posix support of isatty ?
[1:36] <jimbaker> would seem most reasonable
[1:40] <jimbaker> how current is org.jruby.ext.posix.POSIX in jnr-posix.jar ? last updated by pjenvey_ on April 18
[1:40] <pjenvey_> I don't understand what's happening, are you saying ipython runs in a subprocess?
[1:41] <pjenvey_> or just that interactive mode isn't detected in a lot of places
[1:42] <jimbaker> ipython doesn't run in a subprocess. but from what i can tell, isatty returns false whenever we run a script, instead of being directly interactive
[1:44] <pjenvey_> ah, that's odd
[1:46] <jimbaker> so that's the need for -i as a workaround. the discussion about subprocess etc is just considering what we could to work around. but obviously getting true on a TTY would be much preferred
[1:57] <pjenvey_> ok I installed IPython on trunk and ran ipython. there's no colors but sys.stdin/out/err.isatty() all True
[1:57] <pjenvey_> install it with the patch applied
[1:57] <pjenvey_> installed
[1:59] <jimbaker> i just applied the same test
[2:00] <jimbaker> sys.stdin.isatty() == True. but it's not interactive. something is wrong in that test
[2:00] <jimbaker> in jython.java
[2:02] <jimbaker> i think the lack of colors has to do with the platform detection in ipython. colors normally don't work on nt, so probably failing that logic somewhere in the rather convoluted code that is ipython
[2:03] <pjenvey_> i thought that was the symptom i was looking for if isatty() was failing
[2:04] <jimbaker> anyway, one would think this should work, opts.interactive = ((PyFile)Py.defaultSystemState.stdin).isatty();
[2:04] <pjenvey_> what is the symptom? now that i think about it interactive mode doesn't change anything with isatty
[2:05] <jimbaker> -i overrides this (it becomes fixInteractive in jython.java)
[2:20] <jimbaker> ok, i see what's going on here. opts.interactive is always assumed false if a script is run. so we never actually perform the setting of opts.interactive = ((PyFile)Py.defaultSystemState.stdin).isatty();
[2:20] <jimbaker> so as you mentioned, nothing to do with isatty, except if jython is run w/o a script
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[2:32] <jimbaker> i think the problem here is that the logic is confused. it was if (!opts.fixInteractive && opts.interactive) { but it should be if (!opts.fixInteractive || opts.interactive) { in order to do boolean implication, which i think is what was attempted here
[2:32] <jimbaker> incidentally when i make that fix and avoid -i, i suddenly get ipython to be colorized
[2:33] <jimbaker> pjenvey_: RC2 ? i certainly will make this fix, assuming it passes the regrtest
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[3:14] <jimbaker> anyway, i committed this fix in r7161
[3:48] <jimbaker> figured out the ipython colorization. too many ipython installs lying around. it turns out that the os.name fixes i made had this impact of turning *off* colorization. (some complex logic no doubt.) the os.name fixes were necessary prior to the readline fixes i made to support ipython. but now readline does the right thing. but we still need os.name fixes for 1) install, otherwise get "Unsupported operating system: java" ; 2) OS integrati
[3:59] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Yo;.
[3:59] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Er... yo'.
[3:59] <pr3d4t0r> :)
[3:59] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Congrats on RC2.
[3:59] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: I'm talking to the Mule guys on Friday about Jython 2.5.2 :)
[3:59] <jimbaker> pr3d4t0r: hey, wait, we haven't done that yet. just RC1 ;)
[4:00] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Can you offer your opinion on why ipython over bpython? I like bpython myself. I can't recall why but I couldn't get ipython to work well on my Mac.
[4:00] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Er - yeah. RC1.
[4:00] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Too much typing tonite.
[4:00] <jimbaker> but i expect we will roll out a RC2. having ipython work almost out of the box is a big dea l i think
[4:01] <jimbaker> ipython 0.10.1 should work on a recent release of cpython on the mac. just needs libedit, which the mac has
[4:01] <jimbaker> or 0.10 - 0.10.1 was released just a couple of weeks ago
[4:02] <jimbaker> i haven't looked at bpython, but it looks like it uses curses which jython is not going to support
[4:03] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Ah.
[4:04] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: What does ipython run on?
[4:04] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: I know very little about it :\ Let me look at their page first instead of wasting your time.
[4:04] <jimbaker> just standard readline. which we now emulate
[4:04] <jimbaker> the more important thing is that ipython is heavily used in many projects. for example it's the default shell in django
[4:05] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Ah.
[4:05] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: When I run things in Django I normally debug the Python code separately from the pages, then reload/refresh it.
[4:06] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: So I assume it isn't fully interactive like bpython, with the pretty screens and auto-complete, and so on.
[4:06] <jimbaker> right. but django allows for the experience of trying very small things out, since everything can be accessed from the console
[4:06] <jimbaker> so you can play with a model, that sort of thing
[4:06] <jimbaker> the auto-complete just becomes very nice
[4:07] <jimbaker> naturally it's also nice in a complex env like the jdk or other java packages, just to try things out
[4:07] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Yeah.
[4:08] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: I should check if I can get bpython to run with it :)
[4:09] <jimbaker> well, good luck on that ;). as i mentioned bpython requires curses. there's a port of curses for java, so technically it is possible i suppose
[4:09] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: JCurses and so on, yeah.
[4:09] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Just thinking out loud.
[4:10] <jimbaker> yes, i suppose it's possible for someone to contribute a wrapper, ideally by putting on pypi
[4:11] <jimbaker> that would be nice, pip install jython-curses...
[4:12] <jimbaker> so are you going to give a talk at pycon?
[4:12] <jimbaker> pr3d4t0r: ^^^
[4:13] <jimbaker> i need to encourage people to submit proposals on what they're doing with jython. mule + jython sounds like a very good fit to me, based on the work i've done in the SOA space
[4:13] <jimbaker> and the very clumsy tools that the vendors generally provide
[4:26] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: No... I'd love to. What's the URL?
[4:27] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: I've been prozelitizing the hell out of Python among the Java crowd. The Python presentations are a bit different because I'm still building my kung f00 so there are usually more experienced guys in the audience.
[4:27] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: So I spin them a bit differently.
[4:27] <pr3d4t0r> Hrm... PyCon Asia Pacific in Singapore sounds right.
[4:28] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: I'll send a proposal to that one.
[4:29] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: The US version occurs at roughly the same time as TheServerSide Java Symposium, so I probably can't attend. Plus, to be honest, Atlanta isn't in my dial ;) it isn't that interesting a place to visit (I lived there for six months).
[4:34] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Don't tell anyone but I like to pick my conferences based on the location ;)
[4:37] <jimbaker> pr3d4t0r: sounds fair enough to me. do consider europython in florence however. that's a nice location. should be june or july
[4:44] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Hrm... that'd be nice.
[4:44] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: And I'll be living in Europe at that time if all the planets align.
[4:50] <jimbaker> pr3d4t0r: very cool. i hope to be there a good chunk of next summer too
[4:55] <jimbaker> so please try out rc1. i think most of the jsr223 functionality has been shaken out since 2.5.1 and into the recent betas, but that's a key new capability for jython. hopefully we can address the remaining embedding issues in 2.6, such as thread pool interaction. we might also look at such capabilities as osgi. there's been some work out there that we can help by standardizing
[5:08] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Q. - why not go straight to 2.7.x?
[5:08] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: Much cleaner and a good bridge toward Python 3000.
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[15:08] <jimbaker> pr3d4t0r: we debate the 2.7 question all of the time :)
[15:10] <jimbaker> right now, i'm advocating a 2.6+ path - get the most important (or most interesting) features from 2.7. three months from now, we will have a much better idea about timelines
[15:11] <agronholm> compiling a list of necessary changes for 2.5 -> 2.6 vs 2.5 -> 2.7 would help with the decision
[15:12] <agronholm> mostly it's just like 2.6 changelog + 2.7 changelog though
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[15:23] <jimbaker> agronholm: pretty much this is done in http://docs.python.org/dev/whatsnew/2.7.html etc. not perfect. changelog has more noise. the test suite tends to give us more of an idea, and in general its coverage for new features is good and getting better
[15:25] <jimbaker> also we have a better understanding of how to approach new features having done it before. lastly i think there are fewer truly big changes.
[15:26] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: There are some things like the with statement support across objects for which I'd like more uniformity.
[15:26] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: That isn't a Jython issue per se, though.
[15:26] <jimbaker> looking at the calendar - 2.6+ or whatever will be an excellent target for the sprints at pycon in mid march. maybe we can target an alpha by then too
[15:26] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: It'd be nice if Jython got some of those things right before Python did :)
[15:27] <jimbaker> what would you like to see with respect to the with-statement?
[15:28] <jimbaker> in general, we can try out a set of ideas by monkeypatching the appropriate classes with appropriate context management
[15:29] <jimbaker> pr3d4t0r: but if python leaves something undefined, we can do something reasonable there
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[15:31] <jimbaker> ohumbel: did you see the updates i made with respect to getting interactive consoles working properly?
[15:32] <jimbaker> in other news, in one hour i'm going to meet up with jeremy siek to discuss improving jython performance radically
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[15:34] <jimbaker> it's about time we start really working on performance. #pypy would like to have a competitor now that unladen swallow has dropped out. given what the jvm gives us, including the preview of invokedynamic support available now, we might just be able to do that
[15:34] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: There were a couple of streams that had half-arsed suppor tfor with.
[15:35] <jimbaker> are you talking about with-statement for java objects?
[15:35] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: No.
[15:35] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: The string as stream object in Python.
[15:36] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: It's broken in 2.6 if you try to use with.
[15:36] <jimbaker> you mean cStringIO ?
[15:36] <jimbaker> in general, we can correct this via the approach i mentioned in http://www.jython.org/jythonbook/en/1.0/Concurrency.html#interruption
[15:39] <jimbaker> anyway, if you can put an example in the pastebin, i would like to look at it
[15:41] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: I'll look for the code that had the issue.
[15:41] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: This happened several months ago.
[15:41] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: About August.
[15:42] <pr3d4t0r> jimbaker: We were writing a parser and needed a way to iterate and buffer elegantly for a loooooooooooooooooooooong string.
[15:53] <jimbaker> pr3d4t0r: got it. sounds like a cool problem, definitely want to see it now!
[15:54] <jimbaker> ok, got to run, but i'll be back online in a few
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[15:55] <ohumbel> jimbaker - i didn't update to the latest revision yet, will probably do tonight
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[16:05] <pr3d4t0r> Heh.
[16:08] <adiroiban> Hi, Is there a simple way of getting the Java main thread from Jython? I am trying to use SWT from Jython, but on OSX Cocoa it complains that the
[16:08] <adiroiban> swt display must be created in the main thread
[16:10] <adiroiban> or is there an option to execute the PythonInterpreter code in the main thread?
[16:17] <ohumbel> adiroiban - not that i know of
[16:17] <ohumbel> how would you get the main thread from pure java?
[16:19] <adiroiban> ohumbel: :) I don't know...
[16:23] <adiroiban> ... i guess that by getting all threads and looking after the one named 'main'
[16:27] <pr3d4t0r> adiroiban: Look at java.lang.Thread and java.lang.ThreadGroup
[16:27] <pr3d4t0r> adiroiban: There's some way of walking the thread tree upward.
[16:28] <pr3d4t0r> adiroiban: If you can figure it out in Java, then just do the same thing in Python. Beware that you *may* cause yourself some class loader heartburn. If all things are equal, stick to Swing instead of SWT.
[16:31] <adiroiban> SWT is a must and is working nice with Jython on Windows and Linux
[16:33] <pr3d4t0r> adiroiban: Yeah, it's also non-standard.
[16:33] <pr3d4t0r> adiroiban: As for "works fine" that's debatable ;)
[16:33] <adiroiban> :)
[17:05] <pr3d4t0r> adiroiban: OKi, without trolling: check on the Thread and ThreadGroup classes. You ought to be able to get the main trhead that way.
[17:05] <pr3d4t0r> adiroiban: I did it a while ago, butI can't remember all the details. I do remember that's how I started.
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[17:16] <iman> i am java developer about 4 years, you think it's good that i start to learn jython ?
[17:16] <iman> and i want to know what's differenet bettwen python and jython?
[17:22] <fwierzbicki> iman: we think it's good to learn Jython :)
[17:23] <iman> fwierzbicki, what's best to start python or jython and why?
[17:23] <fwierzbicki> iman: the main difference between the C implementation of Python (usually just called Python, but often called CPython)
[17:23] <fwierzbicki> and Jython
[17:23] <fwierzbicki> is that Jython is implemented on the JVM in Java and integrates very well with Java code
[17:24] <fwierzbicki> CPython is better at integrating with C code
[17:24] <fwierzbicki> So if you are a Java developer and want to integrate with Java code, Jython is better
[17:24] <fwierzbicki> for that
[17:24] <iman> fwierzbicki, it's means jython run in jvm then it's a compiler language
[17:24] <fwierzbicki> yes
[17:24] <fwierzbicki> it is a full implementation of the Python language
[17:26] <fwierzbicki> It compiles automatically in the background to .class files
[17:26] <iman> fwierzbicki, really, jython supports all implementation of python
[17:26] <fwierzbicki> language level and most of the standard library
[17:26] <fwierzbicki> there are a couple of exceptions like curses support
[17:27] <fwierzbicki> and c extensions are not supported
[17:27] <fwierzbicki> but otherwise, yes it is a full implementation
[17:28] <iman> then i want to know whats the different between java and jython in practice
[17:29] <iman> http://jython.extreme.st/
[17:30] <iman> it's sample of jython
[17:31] <fwierzbicki> It's a matter of how you feel about working in Python (here I use Python to mean all implementations not just CPython)
[17:31] <fwierzbicki> To many, me included, Python is a much faster language to develop in, and clearer to read vs Java
[17:32] <iman> ok - i know
[17:32] <fwierzbicki> Java gets you faster execution speed at the expense of verbosity and slower dev time - though we are working on that :)
[17:33] <iman> jython has some framework like django
[17:33] <fwierzbicki> that is the execution speed - we aren't working on being more verbose ;)
[17:33] <fwierzbicki> Django does work on Jython
[17:33] <fwierzbicki> see http://code.google.com/p/django-jython/
[17:33] <iman> wow it's good, from where can i stared learn jython?
[17:34] <fwierzbicki> http://www.jython.org/jythonbook/en/1.0/
[17:34] <fwierzbicki> it's also available in paperback if you prefer reading that way
[17:34] <fwierzbicki> http://apress.com/book/view/9781430225270
[17:35] <iman> your jython developer ?
[17:35] <iman> source code developer
[17:35] <fwierzbicki> yeah - I'm the project lead - though jimbaker and oti have been doing much more lately
[17:36] <iman> i can't buy it becuase i live in iran
[17:36] <fwierzbicki> I will be getting more involved again in the 2.6 cycle
[17:36] <fwierzbicki> iman: the open source version I pointed to should work for you in Iran
[17:37] <iman> i wanted to join openjdk developer but for iranian nationality i can't do it
[17:37] <iman> https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/helios-bot/
[17:37] <iman> http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/dina-project
[17:37] <iman> first is for me
[17:37] <iman> and then is for our
[17:38] <iman> and this is our channel #5hit
[17:38] <fwierzbicki> ah interesting stuff
[17:40] <fwierzbicki> iman: if you try your framework out on Jython/Django - let us know how your experience goes
[17:41] <fwierzbicki> there are often corner cases that come up
[17:41] <iman> what IDE can i use? emacs , eclipse ?
[17:41] <iman> i think eclispe pyDev support jython
[17:41] <iman> then i start to learn jython
[17:41] <iman> i worked it internet banking developer and security layer
[17:41] <fwierzbicki> iman: yes, I've heard great things about pyDev
[17:42] <fwierzbicki> I'm too stodgy for anything to pull me off of my precious vi :)
[17:42] <fwierzbicki> vim I should say
[17:42] <iman> :D
[17:42] <iman> i love emacs for richard styleman :D
[17:43] <iman> as we work in gnewsense linux
[17:43] <fwierzbicki> emacs vs vi was once the great debate
[17:43] <iman> in new version
[17:43] <fwierzbicki> seems these days it is which version control tool you use
[17:44] <iman> in my company i use svn but in personal project i use mercurial
[17:44] <fwierzbicki> mercurial is very nice
[17:44] <fwierzbicki> I'm bzr at work and some of git/hg/bzr at home
[17:44] <iman> yes it's good for professional developer but amateur developer can worked with svn very good
[17:45] <fwierzbicki> oh I should add svn at home since that is where Jython is stored
[17:45] <fwierzbicki> one of these days we will get to git/hg/bzr -- probably hg
[17:45] <iman> hg yes, i know
[17:46] <fwierzbicki> it's just proving hard to migrate our history
[17:46] <iman> but svn is very simple to migrate history
[17:46] <iman> just some click
[17:47] <iman> you can use svn with password and private key to commit project
[17:47] <iman> it's secure
[17:47] <iman> but in personal project i used mercurial because it's has some feature than svn
[17:48] <iman> if you want you can join in our channel #5hit
[17:50] <iman> This is a great honor for us
[17:51] <iman> anyway i can't buy jython paperback or pdf because i live in iran
[17:52] <fwierzbicki> iman: the web page I sent is not for pay - it is open sourced
[17:52] <iman> fwierzbicki, ok - i started to use it
[17:56] <iman> fwierzbicki, we can chat with you in our channel, i speak about you and my lead and freainds wants to chat with you
[17:56] <iman> fwierzbicki, #5hit
[17:56] <fwierzbicki> iman: I appreciate the offer, but must get back to the paying job :)
[17:57] <fwierzbicki> iman: perhaps another time
[17:57] <iman> fwierzbicki, ok - anyway yor projcet is very nice - ok
[17:57] <fwierzbicki> iman: thanks!
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[20:21] <jimbaker> ohumbel: sounds good. we probably should wait a week regardless for bug reports on RC1. i personally think ipython support and the underlying bugfix is sufficient to justify RC2
[20:27] <jimbaker> btw, i thought i should mention: i'm going to be at the ubuntu developer summit next monday in orlando. this is because i'm joining canonical. (just have a few papers to sign here first.) fwierzbicki is there too, but i will be in a different group. my role is to help develop canonical's cloud platform. naturally that consists mostly of writing python
[20:27] <jimbaker> so pretty happy about that!
[20:29] <fwierzbicki> I won't actually be at the Ubuntu developer summit this time around
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[21:52] <adiroiban> pr3d4t0r: sorry for the delay. Yes. In java there is Thread.enumerate(threads);
[21:52] <adiroiban> that can be used for iterating all active threads
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These logs were automatically created by JythonLogBot_ on irc.freenode.net using a slightly modified version of the Java IRC LogBot (github).