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[2:48] <alex001> Hello guys. Does readline work out of the box in the jython console ?
[2:49] <alex001> "In addition, 2.5.2 beta 2 adds completion support." never mind Ijust too tired
[2:50] <alex001> *I'm just too tired
[2:50] <alex001> was using 2.5.1
[2:53] <jimbaker> alex001: some form of readline works out of the box on 2.5.x
[2:54] <jimbaker> i'm going to try to add the missing readline module functionality for 2.5.2, since it would be one more reason to get people to switch from 2.2
[2:56] <alex001> to activate completion support in 2.5.2 do I still have to uncomment python.console and python.console.readlinelib in the registry file ?
[2:58] <jimbaker> you don't have to make any changes there
[2:58] <jimbaker> see http://bugs.jython.org/issue1133 for what you need to do
[3:05] <alex001> seems like I've run into a bug: I have created the .jlinebindings.properties in in my home directory (with 9:COMPLETE). I have started jython and typed "a" or import java.lang and no response
[3:05] <alex001> removing the .jlinebindings.properties and the console works again
[3:05] <alex001> same if jlinebindings.properties contains nothing
[3:07] <jimbaker> hmmm... on a unix-like system?
[3:08] <jimbaker> (i guess here that really means posix vs windows... although it shouldn't matter for JLine)
[3:09] <alex001> yeah sorry linux 32
[3:10] <alex001> using your sample.jlinebindings.properties that I've found in one of your emails (as attachments) makes the jython console responsive again however tab completion is not active despite 9:COMPLETE
[3:11] <alex001> *attachment
[3:11] <jimbaker> ok... you definitely need the whole jline bindings file, partial ones i don't believe work
[3:12] <alex001> it works :)
[3:14] <alex001> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.jython.user (the Completion support (was Re: Collaborate on Open Source Jython App)) post is perfect! i was missing out the import readline, etc
[3:16] <jimbaker> yes, it's rather interesting having the same compatible set of imports
[3:16] <jimbaker> awkward... but best to be compatible here (including full support eventually)
[3:19] <alex001> http://pastebin.com/175phrSu <-- a bug that crashed jython i.e. performing tab completion on an unknown object
[3:22] <alex001> and I have 404 on the following links from the jython page: "Reporting Bugs", "Developer FAQ", "Jython Roadmap" and "Contributors"
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[3:36] <jimbaker> alex001: interesting bug
[3:37] <jimbaker> anyway, please just attach your bug report to http://bugs.jython.org/issue1133
[3:47] <alex001> I've attached the bug report. Does it happen in your environment as well ?
[3:48] <jimbaker> yes it does
[3:48] <jimbaker> something weird about System here
[3:48] <jimbaker> if you import it in from java.lang, no problem
[3:49] <alex001> I've tested it with a invalid variable too and it crashes i.e. a.<tab>
[3:49] <alex001> where a is undefined
[3:52] <jimbaker> ahh... another useful data point
[3:52] <jimbaker> only users find these things ;)
[3:55] <alex001> jython/Lib/readline.py at line 97... I've put completion = function(buffer[:cursor], state) in a try/except Exception and it does not crash anymore
[3:55] <alex001> eval was returning an error i.e. NameError name 'a' is not defined
[3:56] <alex001> but no code that called the function expected an error... which in this case should get swallowed perhaps
[3:59] <jimbaker> alex001: thanks, that makes a lot of sense
[3:59] <jimbaker> readline support as you can see in that module is very preliminary
[3:59] <jimbaker> in terms of going beyond just jline
[3:59] <jimbaker> but it seemed useful enough to put out there
[4:05] <alex001> I definitely agree! I was just looking to use jython to replace a half-assed interactive testing client with jython and I badly needed tab completion... with this and jython scripting, my workload is going to be a breeze ;)
[4:05] <alex001> by the way, do you guys have sprints on jython ?
[4:07] <alex001> because at the montreal-python group, we have started doing them and more and more people join us... sometimes it is just translation, other times testing or even core python features (distutils2) and perhaps we could have a sprint on jython :)
[4:09] <jimbaker> alex001: we have been discussing having a sprint actually
[4:09] <jimbaker> we want to get our docs updated with the 2.5.2 release
[4:10] <jimbaker> it would be nice to have many eyeballs giving us patches on the restructuredtext for http://www.jython.org/docs/ - we just took cpython 2.6 and made nearly no changes to it
[4:10] <jimbaker> this sort of sucks
[4:11] <jimbaker> going further, it's pretty ambitious to work on jython 2.5.x right now. all bugs seem to be very nonshallow
[4:12] <alex001> I see. I would gladly help during a sprint (remotely)
[4:12] <jimbaker> hopefully jython 2.6 changes that so we get back to easier stuff to work on
[4:12] <alex001> is there a 2.6 branch already ?
[4:13] <jimbaker> that's a good question... i have been very heads down for working on things
[4:13] <jimbaker> yes, https://jython.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/jython/branches/jy26/
[4:14] <jimbaker> i don't know when it was last merged w/ trunk
[4:14] <jimbaker> for 2.6, we want to radically improve performance
[4:15] <jimbaker> clean up the API, provide jythonc replacement, and support for the c python extension api
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[4:15] <jimbaker> radical means be ambitious like pypy or unladen swallow, before they gave up
[4:16] <alex001> these are some pretty good goals!!
[4:16] <jimbaker> so this means a combination of invokedynamic + standard approaches like type specialization
[4:17] <jimbaker> and i forgot the most modest one - just provide python 2.6 compatibility (really 2.6+, we will include some 2.7 features, as it makes sense, we have time, or people like them)
[4:19] <jimbaker> alex001: still they seem doable. we have a lot of people now who know jython's internals, having got out 2.5.x, so this is a big improvement in the last 3 years.
[4:20] <alex001> 2.6 will be out then perhaps by mid 2011 ?
[4:30] <alex001> I gotta go; sleep time. Thank again Jim. I'll check out the site for any sprint mentions and the developer guide.
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[4:33] <jimbaker> alex001: don't know about a specific timeline for 2.6... probably should timebox it like that however
[4:33] <jimbaker> part of the planning we need to do
[4:48] <thobe> jimbaker: I signed on just as you were wrapping up this. What were those radical goals you were talking about?
[4:50] <jimbaker> thobe: what we have discussed in the past - improve jython performance, clamp, c ext api. less radical perhaps - jython api cleanup, especially PySystemState
[4:50] <jimbaker> did you see the recent jvm-language discussion thread?
[4:50] <thobe> jython api cleanup was radical when we started discussing it
[4:50] <jimbaker> i think we need to keep it less radical ;)
[4:51] <thobe> no, I haven't really had time to read e-mails the past two months
[4:51] <jimbaker> let me find the link... hold on
[4:51] <jimbaker> http://groups.google.com/group/jvm-languages/browse_thread/thread/f31cdb305d0023ef
[4:52] <jimbaker> headius started the thread with "Battling the code size monster" re large methods
[4:52] <jimbaker> since this is since something our pbcvm solves, i commented accordingly
[4:53] <jimbaker> remi then planted the seed in my head that the pbcvm solves a more interesting problem. it provides for a limited form of continuation passing semantics for recovery from type specialization when a guard fails
[4:54] <jimbaker> the other interesting observation (also by remi) is that any type specialization must be in the context of idiomatic python to idiomatic java translation
[4:55] <jimbaker> since jvms optimize average human written code in java
[4:56] <jimbaker> i don't know how close remi's php.reboot is in terms of being dynamic to python, but he has some very good performance results
[4:57] <thobe> yes, he has designed the language to work well on the JVM
[4:58] <thobe> just like Rich Hickey has done with Clojure
[4:58] <jimbaker> which certainly helps. but still has some dynamic quality. maybe not frame introspection, although i haven't looked
[5:00] <jimbaker> anyway, what i'm thinking of doing is a little experiment. what if i hand translated some idiomatic python to idiomatic java. maybe fib. maybe something more interesting. but i preserved complete fallback to all possible dynamic twists. frame introspection. functions being changed (this part is easy with indy).
[5:00] <jimbaker> so basically code against PyCode
[5:00] <thobe> definitely not??? no one in their right mind would design such a feature for a language that is focused on being optimizable
[5:00] <thobe> sounds like an interesting experiment
[5:01] <jimbaker> yeah, i think we need to do this experiment. also work out other idiomatic translations, such as generators to regular Java state machines implementing Iterator
[5:04] <jimbaker> i'm still prepared to believe that for best performance, we need decorators that add metadata to the underlying code objects, such as @noframe (or whatever we call it). but if we can support frames w/ somewhat less penalty, that would be very interesting
[5:07] <thobe> yeah, I've had that kind of thoughts as well
[5:12] <jimbaker> sure. so hopefully we can start trying these ideas out in 2.6. it's about time!
[5:15] <thobe> it really is
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[8:17] <agronholm_> the jvm seems so problematic for python that it'd almost be easier to build a python for llvm or similar and make java run on that too
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[23:23] <KeeperOfTheSoul> I keep getting: TypeError call of non function ('module' object) but I have absolutly no idea what that means
[23:24] <agronholm> KeeperOfTheSoul: what are you doing that causes such an error?
[23:24] <KeeperOfTheSoul> no idea
[23:24] <agronholm> well that is pretty unhelpful
[23:24] <KeeperOfTheSoul> its on the line where I do; foo = Scenario()
[23:24] <agronholm> that doesn't help
[23:25] <agronholm> can you reproduce the problem on a smaller scale?
[23:25] <KeeperOfTheSoul> one sec
[23:27] * thijstriemstra (~thijstrie@h161140.upc-h.chello.nl) Quit (Quit: thijstriemstra)
[23:28] <KeeperOfTheSoul> I was getting it with: http://python.pastebin.com/uLGXYbsQ
[23:29] <agronholm> what jython version
[23:30] <agronholm> waitaminute
[23:30] <agronholm> so you import the Scenario module and try to call it?
[23:30] <KeeperOfTheSoul> not sure, using The Grinder 3 on the latest jre
[23:30] <agronholm> and you wonder why you're getting an error?
[23:30] <KeeperOfTheSoul> yeah
[23:30] <agronholm> you can't call modules
[23:31] <agronholm> always name your modules with lowercase characters
[23:31] <KeeperOfTheSoul> I thought I was importing the class Scenario (in the file Scenario.py) from the tests namespace?
[23:31] <agronholm> no, you are importing the Scenario.py module
[23:31] <agronholm> from tests.Scenario import Scenario <- that would be importing the class
[23:32] <KeeperOfTheSoul> ok, so the file is the module, and the module contains classes?
[23:32] <agronholm> are you new to python?
[23:32] <KeeperOfTheSoul> never looked at it until today
[23:32] <agronholm> ic
[23:32] <agronholm> so yeah
[23:32] <agronholm> the files are modules
[23:32] <agronholm> modules can contain classes
[23:32] <KeeperOfTheSoul> used to java and C# where the file name normally == the class name
[23:32] <agronholm> not so in python
[23:33] <agronholm> since modules can contain any number of functions and classes
[23:33] <KeeperOfTheSoul> ah must have missed that in the guide
[23:34] <KeeperOfTheSoul> can the file name be the same as the class name, other than case and be considered different?
[23:34] <KeeperOfTheSoul> eg, scenario.py and Scenario
[23:34] <agronholm> not sure I follow
[23:35] <agronholm> the module name and any containing class names have no connection whatsoever
[23:36] <KeeperOfTheSoul> ah right, so just from <directory>.<directory>.<file> import <class> ? where file is the module
[23:37] <agronholm> yeah
[23:37] <KeeperOfTheSoul> ah excellent, thanks
[23:37] <agronholm> remember that every python package needs a special file, __init__.py in it to be considered a package
[23:37] <agronholm> the file must exists but can be empty
[23:38] <agronholm> -s
[23:38] <KeeperOfTheSoul> yup, go those, just couldn't work out what the error message ment, and nothing on google for that error stated that I was simply trying to use the module not the class :)
[23:39] <agronholm> may I ask why you are particularly interested in jython?
[23:39] <KeeperOfTheSoul> want to use The Grinder to perform some load testing, and it uses jython for its scripting
[23:41] <agronholm> ok
[23:45] <KeeperOfTheSoul> should be fun, nothing like having an actual goal to try and perform to aid learning a language
[23:46] <agronholm> you may want to stick with the mainline python when you don't specifically need java access
[23:47] * yacc (~andreas@chello062178129237.5.13.vie.surfer.at) has joined #jython
[23:47] <KeeperOfTheSoul> it does need it in this case, since The Grinder is java
[23:47] <agronholm> yep
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