#jython IRC Log


IRC Log for 2010-09-07

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[1:17] <jimbaker> bugs.jython.org and bugs.python.org are both not reachable by me (they are both hosted in some sort of multiple tenant arrangement)
[1:19] <jimbaker> re maven - has anyone followed this page http://wiki.python.org/jython/HowToReleaseJython ?
[1:21] <jimbaker> i have not personally looked at this, probably because i'm not a real user of maven... but i don't know if it hasn't received any attention from others because they're in the same situation
[1:22] <jimbaker> ohumbel: ^^^
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[2:45] <rplevy> jimbaker: ohumbel: so it sounds like it's just a matter of preparing and uploading the ant project to maven central, and then opening a ticket. There must be certain people who have access to upload to the jython maven repo, I would guess, probably whoever does the releases for jython?
[2:48] <jimbaker> rplevy: yes, that sounds about right to me. i have not done this myself for certain. hopefully we can determine who has done this in the past
[2:51] <jimbaker> probably people are fwierzbicki and cgroves, however, they have been busy recently. ohumbel did the last release of 2.5.2b1, so he's most likely to know
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[2:55] <jimbaker> rplevy: anyway, we will clear this part of our process up
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[3:14] <rplevy> jimbaker: thanks, that is much appreciated. I'm trying to use NLTK, and much more of it seems to work with this more recent version of Jython. I'm operating the Jython interpreter within Clojure, so getting Jython from Maven is handy.
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[3:18] <jimbaker> rplevy: cool use, i did look at your clojure-jython bridge recently (http://code.google.com/p/clojure-python/ for others here), that seemed like a neat and simple integration. also i've seen NLTK with jython come up a number of times recently, in conjunction w/ hadoop/mahout
[3:19] <jimbaker> right now the integration points seem more complicated than i would like. i think the one missing thing we need is to get numpy working on jython
[3:20] <jimbaker> i don't know if you saw the discussion on jython-dev re support of the c python extension api
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[3:22] <rplevy> jimbaker: no I haven't seen that, I will check it out. if not that, then maybe replace numpy with a java equivalent? they already call out to java libraries in a few places in the code
[3:22] <jimbaker> basically it has worked well for pypy and ironpython, but it probably is most compelling for jython, given that interesting libraries in this space are both in c/c++/fortran AND java
[3:23] <jimbaker> that's a bit confused - some are in the c domain, others are in java
[3:23] <jimbaker> the ports are usually inadequate
[3:24] <jimbaker> earlier i was advocating that we do our implementation of numpy, but that's just too much work now
[3:26] <jimbaker> (mostly because tools like cython seem to work really well)
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[4:01] <hxcobd> Somewhat weird question for an intermediate-level Python user: I'm not finding much about "pure" usage of Jython; that is, Jython standing on its own as a primary scripting/programming language, without being interspersed with Java or whatnot. Is using Jython in and of itself, with no intent to use Java, a plausible idea?
[4:08] <jimbaker> hxcobd: there are probably two cases here 1) you need to deploy a python app in a java env, but it's otherwise pure python; 2) you want to take advantage of the concurrency in jython (no GIL)
[4:09] <hxcobd> Hmmm.
[4:09] <jimbaker> in the future, perhaps jython may also be significantly faster than cpython. it certainly has the potential to do so, but the integration with java is probably much more compelling for the time being
[4:09] <hxcobd> So the majority of users don't see it as a "replacement" for CPython, per se?
[4:10] <jimbaker> probably not
[4:11] <hxcobd> Interesting. Just sort of trying to get a feel for Jython, as a relative newcomer. It strikes me as a nice way to branch into Java while retaining the syntax I'm used to with Python, but I'm learning that I don't think most people use it the same way I'd intend to.
[4:11] <jimbaker> jython is a reasonably successful implementation of python. cpython is a wildly successful implementation of python ;)
[4:11] <jimbaker> in terms of usage
[4:12] <jimbaker> the trends may change over time, but they're measured in years
[4:12] <hxcobd> Right.
[4:13] <jimbaker> basically some of us believe that at some point, cpython will get boxed in by GC and the GIL
[4:13] <jimbaker> unladen swallow was one experiment to break through, but it failed
[4:13] <hxcobd> Failed? How so?
[4:13] <jimbaker> as in, it's not being worked on in a significant way
[4:14] <jimbaker> because the llvm JIT is incompatible w/ ref counting
[4:14] <jimbaker> there were numerous good benefits from unladen swallow, such as integrating lots of useful patches
[4:15] <jimbaker> and a set of perf benchmarks for python
[4:15] <jimbaker> basically cpython is on a local maximum
[4:16] <jimbaker> it has numerous optimizations now that depend on ref counting
[4:16] <jimbaker> many years of work
[4:18] <jimbaker> so it's probably better to watch pypy, they are definitely doing some great innovations. however, they also have a GIL right now
[4:19] <hxcobd> I should admit upfront, I'm relatively new to the realm of programming languages, especially dynamic ones. I'm primarily a web designer and occasional PHP lackey.
[4:19] <jimbaker> jython's biggest problem is that we don't have too many people working on it
[4:19] <jimbaker> especially in having no dedicated resources
[4:19] <jimbaker> but it's easier to work on
[4:19] <jimbaker> because the JVM is very robust
[4:20] <hxcobd> *nods*
[4:20] <jimbaker> hxcobd: you should probably just target python. then you can choose the best implementation for your needs
[4:21] <hxcobd> Well, the reason why I ask, I suppose, is that it seems as though sort of "specializing" in Jython would fuse the best of both worlds; Python code, which I find pleasant to write and/or look at UNLIKE Java, and yet be able to harness the power of Java's portability
[4:21] <jimbaker> but if you need java integration, or concurrency, then jython is definitely the right implementation. mature, in production
[4:21] <jimbaker> and the other thing is, if you need to do any performance work, you can just write it in java, which is much easier than in c
[4:22] <jimbaker> hxcobd: agreed, sounds like a good reason. especially if you want to develop your professional skills, they are most transferrable in the java world
[4:22] <jimbaker> when compared to working with c, which is so fragmented
[4:23] <hxcobd> Exactly. That's sort of where my mind is coming from.
[4:23] <hxcobd> Which brings me to a follow-up question: Assuming I'm roughly "intermediate" in Python, would it be foolish to jump right into Jython? I mean, aside from library calls/imports and a slew of trivial differences, they're functionally identical
[4:24] <jimbaker> hxcobd: pick a API you're interested in working with
[4:24] <jimbaker> maybe that's concurrency, or open GL (JOGL), or something else that's immediately practical
[4:25] <jimbaker> a good thing to try to do is to write a more Pythonic wrapper, that will improve your skills
[4:26] <jimbaker> the best way to do that is to have some experience with the java api first, then determine how it would be nicer
[4:27] <jimbaker> this is a good place to offer up your ideas, we're geeks ;), so we are always interested in the actual experience
[4:28] <hxcobd> What if part of my intent is to avoid learning Java altogether? ;O
[4:28] <jimbaker> the python standard library is rich, and you can go far
[4:29] <jimbaker> especially when you can also use so many libraries and apps on pypi in jython as well
[4:29] <jimbaker> we have no definitive list, but in my experience, they usually work
[4:29] <jimbaker> i would suggest reading our book (jythonbook.com), especially the sections on virtualenv
[4:30] <jimbaker> i personally use the following: distribute, pip, virtualenv, virtualenvwrapper, and nose - awesome tools, and they work well on jython
[4:31] <hxcobd> I have been reading the "official" Jython book and enjoying it thoroughly. My initial impression was that it simply blew me away more immediately than Cpython itself did. Especially working with GUIs; I'd rather work with Swing than Tkinter anyday.
[4:35] <hxcobd> But again, that's a pretty superficial criticism from (obviously) a relative newbie.
[4:35] <jimbaker> swing is definitely so much nicer than tk or the other alternatives for cpython
[4:36] <hxcobd> Yeah, seems that way.
[4:38] <hxcobd> So working from the ground up to learn "both" languages has been enlightening, but I've become frustrated with the seeming lack of programmers/developers exclusively using Jython. I mean, Python's everywhere; hell, entire MMOs have been designed in (primarily) Python, whilst obviously using libraries and such. And yet, it seems like no one views Jython as an implementation that could do the same thing.
[4:39] <jimbaker> it's also one of those java apis which really benefits from being more pythonic. i like what agronholm has done with this, see http://pypi.python.org/pypi/jython-swingutils/
[4:40] <agronholm> that project has not seen progress for a while as I've been swamped with two others, but I really want to make a release at some point
[4:40] <agronholm> feedback and ideas would greatly contribute to that end
[4:41] <jimbaker> steve yegge apparently built a rather large MMO w/ jython, he mentions it in his blog
[4:42] <hxcobd> Really? I'm Googling like the wind.
[4:43] <jimbaker> agronholm: i hope we can drum up interest here, it's a project that needs to be adopted more by jython swing developers
[4:43] <hxcobd> Ahh, called Wyvern, apparently
[4:43] <jimbaker> hxcobd: that's the one
[4:45] <hxcobd> Interesting.
[4:46] <hxcobd> Now, going deeper into game programming... Say you use a game engine like Panda3d, intended for Python programmers. Would it be immediately compatible with Jython and possible to run in the JVM as such?
[4:50] <jimbaker> hxcobd: i doubt it - i had not heard of it until now, but the home page mentions c++ and all
[4:51] <jimbaker> ideally, it would be compatible once we have c python extension api support
[4:51] <jimbaker> and could be a good test
[4:51] <hxcobd> Ahh, I suppose that makes sense
[4:52] <jimbaker> i would recommend instead looking at jmonkeyengine
[4:52] <hxcobd> But in theory any Java-based game engine would work, then.
[4:52] <hxcobd> Haha, had the page opened as you sent that. :)
[4:53] <jimbaker> here's an old jython-users thread, rather content free, but similar Q&A - http://old.nabble.com/Panda3D-in-Jython-td21274053.html
[4:54] <hxcobd> Oh wow, that's perfect, thanks for the link!
[4:55] <hxcobd> Alright, one more remarkably stupid question before I disappear into the bowels of the internet to do some more research: So, in theory, it's possible to do anything in Jython that you can do in Java, and to an end-user, the end result will be identical, correct? (Ignore any particular exceptions and please excuse my gross oversimplification!)
[4:55] <hxcobd> And by "be identical" I mean function identically as well as look identical, assuming you use the same GUI toolkit, game engine, et cetera.
[4:56] <jimbaker> yes
[4:56] <hxcobd> That's all I needed to know!
[4:56] <jimbaker> there are some exceptions - it can be very hard to test certain features from jython in jython
[4:56] <jimbaker> but they don't matter to users :)
[4:56] <hxcobd> haha, right
[4:56] <hxcobd> Thanks so much for all the help, Jim. Can't thank you enough, really!
[4:57] <jimbaker> no worries, please stop by and tell us how it works out!
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[6:42] <Oti> jimbaker: i haven't looked into updating maven yet
[6:43] <Oti> this beta was the first release i created, and i thought 2.5.2 final would be a candidate for maven
[6:44] <Oti> as i understand, 2.5.1 is missing in maven, so i'll try if the steps in http://wiki.python.org/jython/HowToReleaseJython work
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[14:06] <Strav> He. I'm trying to compile xapian against jython. I can supply configure with the proper jython path but I'm somewhat perplex when it comes to linking against the python headers. Any suggestions on how should I proceed?
[14:27] <Strav> err. There's no PIL port for jython yet eh?
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[15:44] <agronholm> iirc it depends on a C lib so don't expect a jython port ever
[15:44] <agronholm> use java imaging instead
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[17:49] <jimbaker> Strav: xapian on jython is probably going to be tough - until c python ext api support lands. but i would think lucene would be the better choice anyway
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[19:22] <jimbaker> i was discussing with Oti the need for a doing a second beta now, with a third beta as soon as we resolve http://bugs.jython.org/issue1327
[19:22] <jimbaker> "Classloaders cannot GC, which exhausts permgen"
[19:23] <jimbaker> i have been asked a number of times to create builds for people, which Oti and i agree indicates a need for a beta
[19:24] <jimbaker> since this is just the tip of the iceberg of those who need to evaluate the 2.5.2 dev
[19:25] <jimbaker> pjenvey: any thoughts?
[19:26] <Oti> jimbaker - i can only second that
[19:26] <Oti> there are enough changes worth another beta (despite the pending bugs)
[19:27] <pjenvey> jimbaker - and hopefully that ticket is already fixed, right? it's pending confirmation
[19:28] <jimbaker> pjenvey: it
[19:28] <jimbaker> '
[19:28] <jimbaker> it is not the easiest thing to test, but i don't think it is
[19:29] <pjenvey> ok, another beta or 2 sounds good then
[19:29] <jimbaker> matt brinkley raised some concerns, and in revisiting by creating a test case, i don't think it's sufficient. i do believe we are close
[19:29] <jimbaker> but i don't want to wait another week on this
[19:29] <jimbaker> i think we have a consensus then
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[19:31] <Oti> sounds like - i'll start tomorrow then (approx. 16 hours from now), if no one objects
[19:32] <jimbaker> Oti: thanks!
[19:33] <Oti> the hudson build is 'unstable' with NullPointerExceptions (http://bob.underboss.org:8080/job/jython/lastCompletedBuild/testReport/)
[19:34] <Oti> maybe i need some help to fix these
[19:45] <jimbaker> yikes. i wonder what's happening here, i've been relying on http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/jython-buildbot/waterfall
[19:45] <jimbaker> which is all good
[19:46] <jimbaker> however, i wonder if the buildbot executes the javatests
[19:46] <Oti> the waterfall runs regrtests only
[19:46] <Oti> javatests are on hudson only, if i remember correctly
[19:47] <jimbaker> so that explains the issue
[19:48] <Oti> can you reproduce it locally (i am on the way, but need another checkout/build cycle)
[19:48] <jimbaker> i'm going to try it again too
[20:01] <Oti> my current workspace (some revision < 7100) passes the java tests
[20:06] <pr3d4t0r> :: yawn ::
[20:06] <pr3d4t0r> Good night, peepers.
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[20:11] <jimbaker> Oti: my trunk and a fresh checkout is seeing the same problem on javatest. maybe i didn't run this test suite before doing the commit? not certain now
[20:11] <jimbaker> fortunately it has been caught now
[20:11] <Oti> sure!
[20:12] <jimbaker> anyway, fixing the build is always the most important thing... nothing immediately obvious in terms of managing the threadstate mapping
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[20:51] <Oti> jimbaker - according to the javadoc of PythonInterpreter.initialize() this method should be called. I hope the docs are still true, otherwise please feel free to revert my latest checkin.
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[21:16] <jimbaker> Oti: thanks for your fix, that works for me too
[21:17] <Oti> you're welcome
[21:17] <jimbaker> pjenvey: is your hudson instance stuck again? or is it just not getting the svn changes?
[21:18] <Oti> i too have trouble seeing the results on hudson
[21:18] <Oti> but i saw the console output for build #8
[21:18] <Oti> this was the currently running test, but the svn changes were completely mixed up
[21:19] <Oti> test / build
[21:19] <jimbaker> Oti: i may want to see if it's not necessary to force the PythonInterpreter changes
[21:20] <jimbaker> maybe there's some sort of sync error occurring - it should not have been necessary. example - test_pythoninterpreter_jy.py
[21:20] <Oti> jimbaker - yes, if possible (since some of the tests ran without that)
[21:20] <jimbaker> likely there's code out there that will be broken
[21:20] <jimbaker> but still, it gets us in the right direction
[21:22] <Oti> pjenvey - http://bob.underboss.org:8080/builds shows the latest builds, but the dashboard not
[21:29] <Oti> i suspect starting build numbers from 1 again confuses hudson
[21:36] <jimbaker> Oti: we just got asked about the underlying problem in jython-dev
[21:36] <jimbaker> at least we are getting the all bugs are shallow with multiple eyeballs effect kicking in
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[21:57] <jimbaker> fwierzbicki: good to see you!
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[22:10] <pjenvey> why on earth did the build numbers go back to 1
[22:10] <pjenvey> wacky
[22:10] <pjenvey> I haven't even touched it lately
[22:11] <fwierzbicki> jimbaker: IRC is going to be part of my life again, so I figured I'd add the Jython channel :)
[22:13] <fwierzbicki> Also I am hoping to dip a toe back into Jython development again real soon
[22:14] <fwierzbicki> but I am in the middle of my first in person sprint at Canonical so it won't be this week
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