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[19:33] <worldhlord> http://www.sec.gov/comments/s7-08-10/s70810.shtml
[19:33] <worldhlord> if python is fortressed by the govt' SEC then Jython's future will be profitably collapsed, xD
[19:36] <worldhlord> bankers -> govt's python for cashflows -> interpreted slowly by cpython -> accelerated by speedy developments of Jython using internal compiler java -> ??? -> profit!
[19:36] <pjenvey> yea
[19:36] <pjenvey> do you know when they'll make a final decision on that?
[19:36] <worldhlord> don't think twice, the decision was made.
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[19:38] <pjenvey> last I heard it sounded like it was just at the propsal stage
[19:50] <worldhlord> see the criticism in http://www.sec.gov/comments/s7-08-10/s70810-89.pdf & http://www.sec.gov/comments/s7-08-10/s70810-78.pdf
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[20:01] <pjenvey> worldhlord - Damn ACM, Philip Wadler is a haskell guy, so of course he thinks somethinmg like f# would be more appropriate =P
[20:01] <worldhlord> M$ wanna IronPython, M$ wanted more XML data-oriented
[20:02] <pjenvey> heh. I think it said they wanted comments by August 2nd
[20:02] <worldhlord> http://www.sec.gov/comments/s7-08-10/s70810-126.pdf <-- from M$
[20:03] <worldhlord> http://www.sec.gov/comments/s7-08-10/s70810-15.htm <-- about the pitfalls of python for buggy programs, xD
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[20:04] <pjenvey> python haters gonna hate
[20:07] <agronholm> I still can't help but to wonder why cpython is so much slower than java
[20:07] <agronholm> is it because of reference counting?
[20:08] <jimbaker> agronholm: ref counting is more tied up with the GIL
[20:09] <jimbaker> it does present problems for unladen swallow, because the LLVM doesn't really work that well w/ ref counting, as i understand it
[20:09] <jimbaker> (in terms of its JIT op)
[20:09] <agronholm> that was one of the primary reasons why the project failed iirc
[20:10] <jimbaker> yes
[20:10] <jimbaker> although i don't want to do any FUD on other python projects
[20:11] <jimbaker> so let's just say, it presents difficult challenges for them, which may be addressed in the future
[20:11] <jimbaker> the problem is, ref counting is very much tied to a lot of optimizations in cpython. so it's hard to just pull it out w/o making it immediately slower
[20:12] <agronholm> well the way I see it, refcounting is a dead end performance wise
[20:13] <worldhlord> the advantage of jython is two-fold: 1) to use govt-approved code 2) to interoperate with complex java projects
[20:13] <jimbaker> you can roll out some simple optimizations w/ it. some good examples are seen in iteration support
[20:14] <jimbaker> but yes, that pulls cpython even more into the perf deadend
[20:14] <worldhlord> but i like more groovy than jython, :(
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[20:15] <jimbaker> worldhlord: we can't help you much here :)
[20:16] <jimbaker> i haven't looked at the SEC proposal, but presumably they want a pure python program as executable pseudocode representing a security
[20:16] <jimbaker> so no java backdoors
[20:17] <jimbaker> the question is, how much people would abuse this by intentionally obfuscating the security definition
[20:19] <jimbaker> still it seems like a good approach, starting with a turing complete language. microsoft's proposal would simply get stuck in making yet another language embedded in xml, which basically sucks
[20:20] <worldhlord> M$ sucks
[20:21] <jimbaker> agronholm: to summarize, cpython is essentially slow because of 1. the bytecode interpreter; 2. dynamic dispatch
[20:21] <worldhlord> groovy is very similar to jython but more oriented to java-interoperativility.
[20:21] <agronholm> dunno how dynamic dispatch could be avoided in a dynamic language
[20:22] <jimbaker> the biggest problems with jython would be 1. dynamic dispatch; 2. dynamic objects, specifically the fact that __dict__ is a concurrent hash map
[20:23] <jimbaker> we can't avoid dyn dispatch, but of course we can make it work much better with JITs. especially observing that they tend to be stable. hence invokedynamic.
[20:24] <jimbaker> for #2, the best bet is to use java objects where possible, whether builtin types or not
[20:24] <worldhlord> jimbaker, the direction is to get a released Java7 that has the instruction invokedynamic, but Java7 is still unreleased, and another feature is added to Java7, the lambda notation.
[20:25] <jimbaker> i don't believe lambda is relevant to other jvm languages, it's just something that gets compiled appropriately to jvm bytecode
[20:26] <worldhlord> the lambda notation should be added later, to Java9 or to Java10, not Java7.
[20:26] <jimbaker> but the important thing to know is that we have a working implementation of invokedynamic that's backwards compatible to java 5
[20:26] <worldhlord> damn Oracle.
[20:27] <agronholm> lambda seems like a java feature rather than a jvm feature
[20:27] <agronholm> hence not awfully relevant to jython
[20:27] <jimbaker> it doesn't inline like it will for java 7, but that's ok. as i understand it, we would get similar inlining as currently seen in jruby
[20:28] <jimbaker> you can follow progress of indy support for < java 7 at http://code.google.com/p/jvm-language-runtime/updates/list
[20:29] <jimbaker> more important for us is that we can have the same codebase, which greatly simplifies things
[20:30] <agronholm> same codebase with what?
[20:30] <worldhlord> i should have working my small projects in java, groovy and jython.
[20:32] <jimbaker> agronholm: same compiler codebase
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[20:32] <agronholm> with jruby?
[20:33] <worldhlord> puff, with jruby, it's too many languages.
[20:34] <jimbaker> sorry, although that would be awesome, and something we have discussed with jruby, no
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[20:34] <jimbaker> i just mean replacing our current reflection machinery
[20:35] <worldhlord> many SEC bankers have $$$ for improving their python systems, jython are one of the candidates, xD
[20:35] <jimbaker> worldhlord: we work pretty closely with jruby, but really not with any other jvm languages
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[20:36] <worldhlord> good luck to you.
[20:36] <jimbaker> worldhlord: one possibility is support static python code analysis. google contributed code for that purpose, which is part of 2.5.2
[20:37] <jimbaker> so apparently google uses jython internally to support their python codebase
[20:37] <jimbaker> (or at least some groups are doing that)
[20:37] <worldhlord> python-based is one of the languages of google together with javascript and java.
[20:38] <jimbaker> that might be of interest to people analyzing securities that are defined in python. time will tell
[20:39] <worldhlord> but i wanna to lose to poor interoperativity with java as the bad languages cpython, unladen-swallow, etc.
[20:39] <worldhlord> /bad languages/bad implementations/
[20:41] <worldhlord> java reflection is a feature very important for maintainance.
[20:41] <jimbaker> invokedynamic is simply a way of getting better performance for what reflection can do
[20:42] <worldhlord> i use groovy/jython for scripts, java for libraries.
[20:42] <agronholm> s/mantainance/maintenance/
[20:43] <jimbaker> i would say, use java for performance critical libraries.
[20:43] <worldhlord> yes!
[20:43] <jimbaker> or if in cpython, you would use __slots__, simply write the type instead as a java class
[20:44] <jimbaker> and watch your object allocation rates improve significantly
[20:44] <worldhlord> i wanna to develop C code that is an effort higher than Java code
[20:45] <jimbaker> a goal of mine for clamp is to pull out the expose machinery so that we can minimize callpath overhead to types defined outside of jython itself
[20:45] <jimbaker> (java types that is)
[20:46] <worldhlord> for complex performant code, C exposes to risks of buggyness and leakness.
[20:48] <jimbaker> there's certainly need to use C for some performance critical code. but usually java would be the same or possibly better (because of concurrency/GC support)
[20:48] <jimbaker> the other category to use C is because there's a large body of code written in it
[20:49] <jimbaker> something we have discussed is supporting the python c extension api
[20:49] <worldhlord> kloc(C) is much higher than kloc(Java)
[20:50] <jimbaker> which in retrospect might be easier than ctypes support, which is still work that continues
[20:50] <jimbaker> for java vs C performance, i recommend this blog post by cliff click: http://www.azulsystems.com/blog/cliff-click/2009-09-06-java-vs-c-performanceagain
[20:51] <worldhlord> but java is for only remediate the slowness of python, and java gives reasonable performance for almost purposes.
[20:51] <jimbaker> absolutely agreed
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[21:22] <worldhlord> good bye to scheme, lisp, matlab, php, i will want Python-Hypertext-Pages, xD
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[21:32] <Moo^_^> worldhlord: they are restructured text pages (reST)
[21:33] <Moo^_^> if you want to have pythonic syntax to write HTML pages :)
[21:35] <worldhlord> yes! thanks Moo^_^
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[21:36] <worldhlord> i want python and groovy syntax embedded to HTML pages
[21:38] <Moo^_^> worldhlord: that's stupid idea
[21:38] <Moo^_^> worldhlord: python is not suitable for templating
[21:38] <Moo^_^> worldhlord: the world has gone beyond that like ten years ago
[21:39] <Moo^_^> worldhlord: and use now proper templating languages
[21:40] <Moo^_^> worldhlord: try here http://jinja.pocoo.org/2/documentation/templates
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[22:14] <agronholm> Moo^_^: I tend to use blocks of Python in my mako templates occasionally
[22:16] <Moo^_^> agronholm: you should put your python code to separate view class which you refer from templates
[22:16] <Moo^_^> putting code into templates is the easiest way to get your codebase messed up
[22:16] <Moo^_^> it is something PHP people do
[22:17] <Moo^_^> don't follow their mistakes
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[22:17] <agronholm> they are only very small blocks and totally view related
[22:20] <Moo^_^> agronholm: if you cannot use template language facilities for doing the task then 1) the template language is not good enough 2) you are doing it wrong :) but it really depends on what you are doing. If you are doing HTML output the template languages should be versatile enough to handle everything without embedded Python code. Embedded means that you lose syntax highlighting, inspection and all kind of other capabilities which are related to having an
[22:20] <Moo^_^> importable Python source code tree.
[22:21] <agronholm> templates tend to have branching, looping etc. structures anyway
[22:23] <agronholm> sometimes I could define some of the locally used functions in a python module which I'd then import to the template
[22:23] <agronholm> but since it didn't really matter either way, I decided not to create another module just for that
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