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[17:39] * Topic is 'Jython 2.5.1 final at http://www.jython.org/ | This channel is logged: http://jython.extreme.st/irclogs/ | Please update the wiki: http://wiki.python.org/jython/ | Pastebin: http://pylonshq.com/pasties | IRC Channel: http://wiki.python.org/jython/IrcChannel | Jython Book: http://jythonbook.com | Podcast: http://www.jythonpodcast.com'
[17:39] * Set by pjenvey!~pjenvey@underboss.org on Tue May 04 00:00:54 CEST 2010
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[18:35] <fijal> hi
[18:35] <fijal> anyone ever tried using netbeans IDE python support?
[18:37] <pjenvey> I tried it a while ago now, it's still in beta
[18:37] <fijal> gmail is also in beta
[18:37] <fijal> but actually works
[18:37] <pjenvey> sure
[18:38] <fijal> oh, it's not any more
[18:38] <fijal> but it worked when it was :)
[18:38] <pjenvey> the python support isn't like the php/ruby support though, those aren't considered beta
[18:38] <fijal> my impression of trying netbeans+python was "did anyone ever run it?"
[18:38] <pjenvey> maybe javascript now too
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[18:47] <juneau001> fijal: I use it, but only as an editor. I use Netbeans everyday for Java development, so it is easy for me to just go back and forth between java projects and jython.
[18:48] <juneau001> I develop Django apps on Jython, so I use the terminal to initiate the manage.py commands
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[19:09] <agronholm> pydev + eclipse is okay, has special support for django too
[19:12] <cobalt_mike> I'll second PyDev+Eclipse
[19:14] <fijal> k
[19:14] <fijal> will try
[19:15] <fijal> I don't want special support for django
[19:15] <fijal> but I do want special support for python
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[19:19] <cobalt_mike> PyDev supports Python, Jython and IronPython
[19:20] <fijal> "supports" = ?
[19:22] <cobalt_mike> you can use any of those as the interpreter
[19:24] <fijal> that's not very far
[19:24] <fijal> my terminal supports all of those to that extend as well
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[19:43] <agronholm> fijal, what do you want then
[19:43] <fijal> well, IDE has usually a lot of options
[19:43] <fijal> auto-completion
[19:43] <fijal> for one
[19:43] <fijal> go-to-test
[19:43] <fijal> refactor
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[20:07] <cobalt_mike> pydev has autocomplete
[20:07] <cobalt_mike> also seems to have some refactoring (extract method, rename, etc.)
[20:17] <agronholm> though it has its shortcomings
[20:17] <agronholm> it doesn't understand namespace packages
[20:17] <agronholm> so almost all my projects have error markers in them
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[20:23] <agronholm> fijal, pydev has a moderately sophisticated autocomplete
[20:23] <agronholm> and plenty of other features
[20:23] <fijal> ok
[20:23] <fijal> will have a look
[20:24] <agronholm> the only downside in eclipse is that it's built on SWT
[20:24] <agronholm> which means eclipse can simply crash without a warning
[20:24] <fijal> I think horribly bloated is a bit of a problem as well
[20:24] <fijal> anyway, I'll look around
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[20:25] <fijal> netbeans support is a joke
[20:26] <fijal> I would try visual studio, but it does not run on linux obviously
[20:27] <agronholm> both netbeans and eclipse are a bit on the heavy side
[20:27] <agronholm> eclipse has a wider selection of third party plugins
[20:28] <fijal> I tried a variety of python ide's a couple of years ago
[20:28] <fijal> with no success
[20:29] <agronholm> some like wing ide
[20:29] <agronholm> but that's python only
[20:30] <agronholm> I prefer eclipse so that I can work with multiple languages without having to switch between IDEs
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[20:46] <fijal> wing sucks
[20:46] <fijal> at least used to suck last time I tried
[20:47] <agronholm> I tried it after having heard some praises for it
[20:47] <agronholm> I was hugely disappointed
[20:49] <fijal> what precisely disappointed you?
[20:52] <agronholm> it doesn't seem to have a concept of a project
[20:52] <agronholm> and I recall the VCS options weren't very good either
[20:53] <agronholm> not that I seriously considered switching anyway
[20:53] <fijal> uh
[20:53] <fijal> how do I install pydev?
[20:53] <fijal> I got lost in eclipse
[20:53] <agronholm> the way you install any plugins
[20:53] <agronholm> help -> install new software
[20:53] <fijal> "help":????
[20:54] <agronholm> the help menu
[20:54] <fijal> yeah, but why?
[20:54] <agronholm> then add pydev's update site there
[20:54] <agronholm> fuck if I know
[20:54] <agronholm> but anyway, you can get the address of pydev's update site from its web site
[20:55] <fijal> yeah
[20:55] <fijal> once you told me "help" I found it
[21:01] <fijal> *ekhem*
[21:01] <fijal> why by default the only vcs is cvs?
[21:01] <agronholm> dunno
[21:01] <agronholm> you can find a proper plugin for mercurial
[21:01] <fijal> yeah, I knpow
[21:01] <agronholm> git is only getting there though
[21:01] <fijal> it's just uphill to import my files in there
[21:04] <fijal> jeez
[21:06] <fijal> FUCK
[21:06] <fijal> ok, I give up
[21:06] <agronholm> what?
[21:07] <fijal> it has bugs left and right
[21:07] <fijal> I'm trying to install svn
[21:07] <fijal> half of icons are missing
[21:08] <fijal> so I can't browse it, etc.
[21:08] <agronholm> which svn plugin are you installing
[21:08] <fijal> I don't know
[21:08] <fijal> why there is more then one?
[21:08] <agronholm> huh?
[21:08] <fijal> subversive I suppose
[21:09] <fijal> well, there is no official svn support?
[21:09] <agronholm> subclipse is the one I use
[21:09] <fijal> seriously?
[21:09] <agronholm> yeah
[21:09] <agronholm> subclipse works pretty much perfectly
[21:09] <fijal> how do you import svn repo?
[21:10] <fijal> I'm pulling half of the world so far
[21:10] <agronholm> click on package explorer
[21:10] <agronholm> new -> other... -> svn -> check out projects from svn
[21:10] <fijal> where is that?
[21:10] <agronholm> but that is assuming you have subclipse
[21:10] <agronholm> didn't you just say you had subversive?
[21:11] <fijal> I don't know, I think I have both by now
[21:11] <agronholm> that could be bad
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[21:11] <agronholm> don't you seriously know what the heck you're even installing?
[21:12] <fijal> I know I'm dumb, but I already spent like 20 minutes and 5 restarts trying to run svn
[21:13] <agronholm> http://subclipse.tigris.org/servlets/ProjectProcess?pageID=p4wYuA
[21:25] <fijal> hm
[21:25] <fijal> python support is pretty dumb
[21:25] <fijal> "go to definition" does nonsense
[21:26] <agronholm> sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't
[21:26] <agronholm> that's a fairly big problem with dynamic languages
[21:26] <fijal> is it?
[21:26] <agronholm> well yeah, it's hard to determine things for certain
[21:27] <fijal> well
[21:27] <fijal> how about I run my tests and you find out types of stuff?
[21:27] <fijal> how hard is that?
[21:27] <fijal> or import things and check
[21:27] <agronholm> import what, check what?
[21:28] <agronholm> be specific
[21:28] <fijal> I mean property of dynamic languages is that you don't know types until runtime, right?
[21:28] <agronholm> that's right
[21:28] <fijal> but you have runtime. You can for example have a trace hook that records what types are really there
[21:29] <fijal> and feeds it back to the IDE
[21:29] <fijal> it's not that hard
[21:29] <agronholm> eh?
[21:29] <agronholm> you may be able to find what the type of a variable is at some point during runtime
[21:29] <agronholm> and indeed the debugger will tell you what it is
[21:29] <agronholm> but what exactly do you want?
[21:29] <fijal> to feed this info back to IDE
[21:30] <fijal> to generate say library interfaces
[21:30] <fijal> so it'll know what possible type this variable can be
[21:30] <agronholm> there is no way to conclusively determine that
[21:30] <agronholm> and what library interfaces are you talking about anyway
[21:30] <fijal> API usually have set of types
[21:30] <fijal> it's happy with
[21:30] <fijal> I want to know that
[21:31] <fijal> why there is no way to conclusively determine that?
[21:31] <fijal> during running of my tests, there is a conclusive number of types
[21:31] <fijal> which a variable can have
[21:31] <agronholm> you are not the center of the universe you know
[21:31] <agronholm> other people's programs can behave in a way that makes the types entirely unguessable
[21:31] <fijal> I'm definitely the center of my universe
[21:31] <fijal> but anyway
[21:32] <fijal> it's not about guessing
[21:32] <fijal> if you run stuff, you know it
[21:32] <fijal> right?
[21:32] <fijal> I mean really run tests
[21:32] <fijal> and *see* what types are
[21:32] <agronholm> you can determine what the type of a variable is at certain points in time
[21:32] <fijal> yes
[21:32] <agronholm> but there is no guarantee that they'll be the same the next time you run it
[21:32] <fijal> and in general is Union(typea, typeb, typec)
[21:33] <agronholm> and what exactly would you do with that information anyway
[21:33] <fijal> I'm not talking about guarantees
[21:33] <agronholm> then you're talking about guesses
[21:33] <fijal> guesses are good if they work
[21:33] <agronholm> but answer my question
[21:33] <agronholm> where are you going to put that information?
[21:33] <fijal> I'm talking about features like go-to-definition or auto completion
[21:33] <fijal> I don't care if sometimes they're off
[21:34] <fijal> but it's better to have them working 95% of time than not at all
[21:34] <fijal> I think it's more than 95%
[21:34] <fijal> variables don't have too many types
[21:34] <fijal> usually one
[21:35] <agronholm> yeah but it's often impossible for the IDE to determine that, and connecting test run data back to the IDE would be very hard to pull off
[21:35] <agronholm> better just wait for jython 3.0 I guess :)
[21:35] <agronholm> or if you're fine with cpython, you can use py3k
[21:36] <fijal> why it would be hard to pull off?
[21:36] <fijal> yeah, I'm not saying my IDE should determine that
[21:36] <fijal> but it should be able to get info from test run
[21:36] <fijal> I would think
[21:36] <fijal> how does py3k helps?
[21:36] <agronholm> you can declare function argument types there
[21:36] <pjenvey> google contributed a static analyzer to jython, it adds metadata to the parser output about types it can determine
[21:37] <agronholm> and return value types
[21:37] <fijal> agronholm: well, I don't want ot
[21:37] <fijal> yo
[21:37] <fijal> to
[21:37] <fijal> I can't type today
[21:37] <fijal> I really want a dynamic IDE for a dynamic language
[21:38] <agronholm> have you ever seen that done before anywhere else?
[21:38] <lucian> fijal: i use komodo edit
[21:38] <lucian> fijal: it actually kinda is a dynamic IDE for dynamic languages
[21:38] <fijal> agronholm: nope, but I'm looking for it
[21:38] <fijal> I think you can claim smalltalk IDEs have this capabilities
[21:39] <lucian> fijal: komodo ide (the payed version) also has python debugging, but I don't quite feel the need for anything more than komodo edit (which is free and open source)
[21:39] <agronholm> isn't smalltalk statically typed?
[21:39] <fijal> nope
[21:39] <lucian> agronholm: no, not at all
[21:39] <agronholm> ok
[21:39] <fijal> besides, statically typed != verbosely typed
[21:39] <pjenvey> it has great IDEs, but the entire runtime is live in the IDE
[21:39] <lucian> fijal: more like statically typed != strongly typed
[21:39] <pjenvey> image based vm
[21:40] <lucian> python is strongly and dynamically typed
[21:40] <fijal> pjenvey: "great" is a matter of taste.
[21:40] <lucian> C is weakly and statically typed
[21:40] <fijal> I've never seen a decent editor there
[21:40] <lucian> fijal: but really, try out komodo edit :)
[21:40] <pjenvey> well great at the feedback features. honestly i've never used one
[21:40] <fijal> lucian: thank you, but I meant the fact that you can statically type stuff and not have type declarations all over the place
[21:40] <fijal> pjenvey: the problem is let's-redefine-a-world in smalltalk
[21:41] <lucian> fijal: ah, so scala and ocaml would fit that description
[21:41] <fijal> yeah
[21:42] <lucian> fijal: and about editors, there's also editra which has code completion and a unit testing plugin
[21:42] <lucian> fijal: but komodo edit tends to be much better :D
[21:42] <fijal> editra/.
[21:42] <fijal> ?
[21:43] <sabi> fijal: yeah, editors (and keyboard support) is definitely a weakness of smalltalk :-/
[21:43] <sabi> then again you need them less
[21:43] <lucian> fijal: http://editra.org/ http://www.openkomodo.com/
[21:43] <fijal> sabi: *cough*
[21:43] <lucian> sabi: *cough* gnu smalltalk *cough(
[21:43] <fijal> I would sorta disagree
[21:43] <fijal> but whatever
[21:44] <sabi> lucian: gnu smalltalk doesn't deserve the name. :P
[21:44] <fijal> I think it's still not the biggest smalltalk problem
[21:44] <lucian> sabi: why? it's a smalltalk with proper code storage
[21:45] <fijal> lucian: did you actually try to use it or you're just guessing?
[21:46] <fijal> I-want-a-decent-IDE
[21:46] <lucian> fijal: gnu smalltalk?
[21:46] <fijal> yeah
[21:46] <lucian> fijal: not much beyond tutorials, so i'm talking out of my ass
[21:46] <sabi> i like smalltalk-the-language ok, but i like the IDE much more. i realize it has one now, but the fact that it's only a few years old says a lot about their priorities.
[21:47] <sabi> (it == gnu smalltalk)
[21:48] <sabi> anyway, i went python -> smalltalk -> python about 10 years ago, so i guess that says everything
[21:49] <lucian> sabi: ah. i like smalltalk the language just i like ruby, but i haven't used either a lot
[21:49] <lucian> sabi: but i found the smalltalk ide very annoying at times, mostly because it insists to do its own window managing & etc
[21:51] <fijal> lucian: it does not work
[21:51] <fijal> it can't resolve my imports and go to files
[21:51] <lucian> fijal: editra? or komodo?
[21:51] <fijal> komodo
[21:51] <fijal> or how do I tell it to get some data?
[21:51] <lucian> fijal: you can add stuff to its search path
[21:51] <fijal> I did
[21:51] <sabi> lucian: yeah, you have to get over that stuff. i'm a bit of a UI snob so i find it very hard
[21:51] <lucian> fijal: either globally or in your project
[21:51] * lucian is also a ui snob
[21:52] <sabi> but the tools (especially the debugger) are so powerful and extensible, it's kinda hard to go back to anything else.
[21:52] <fijal> sabi: seems the basic feature of smalltalk is to rotate windows
[21:52] <fijal> which kind of tells preferences
[21:52] <fijal> on the other hand, python tools are *really* bad
[21:52] <fijal> like debugger
[21:52] <lucian> fijal: yeah, why is that?
[21:52] <fijal> lucian: why is what?
[21:53] <lucian> fijal: i'm wondering why python debuggers suck
[21:53] <fijal> I don't know
[21:53] <fijal> not many people use it
[21:53] <fijal> for one
[21:53] <fijal> for second, I don't think there is any money in python tools
[21:53] <lucian> fijal: was there in smalltalk tools?
[21:57] <fijal> at some point
[21:57] <fijal> there were commercial smalltalks that were operating companies
[21:57] <fijal> there still are
[21:57] <fijal> I think
[21:58] <fijal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_Smalltalk
[21:58] <fijal> for one
[21:58] <fijal> http://www.gemstone.com/
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[22:00] <fijal> wow
[22:00] <fijal> http://maglev.gemstone.com/status/benchmarks/
[22:00] <fijal> those are the first folks I've ever seen to distribute benchmarks in xls
[22:02] <sabi> fijal: yeah, gemstone, cincom, instantiations. dolphin kinda died and sorta came back to life. a few smaller ones
[22:02] <sabi> it's not a totally dead space but most of the work is just support of old apps developed in the 90s
[22:02] <fijal> sabi: I'm just saying there are/were some
[22:02] <sabi> sure. :)
[22:02] <fijal> not sure if there is any money innit any more
[22:02] <fijal> it seems making money on programming languages and/or tools is kinda hard
[22:02] <sabi> absolutely. it's depressing
[22:03] <fijal> if you don't sell something else to which this is an addon
[22:03] <fijal> (like windows and .NET)
[22:03] <sabi> http://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm/ <- haven't tried that, but intellij is pretty terrific
[22:03] <fijal> or solaris and java *cough*
[22:03] <sabi> (although its debugger still sucks a lot, but that's mostly java's fault :)
[22:04] <sabi> it's just depressing we're talking about tools that existed in the mid 1970s and still not being up there today
[22:04] <fijal> I'm kinda dreaming about more dynamic IDE for more dynamic languages
[22:04] <fijal> but I don't think I'll ever sit and work on it
[22:04] <sabi> if i didn't ever have to make any money, that's what i'd do
[22:04] <sabi> but oh well
[22:04] * sabi goes off to take an exam
[22:04] <fijal> I'm busy not making money somewhere else :)
[22:04] <fijal> sabi: good luck
[22:04] <lucian> sabi: good luck indeed. i'm up next week
[22:05] <lucian> fijal: i shopped around quite a bit for a python/dynamic language IDE
[22:05] <lucian> fijal: komodo edit grew on me, especially with the vi emulation
[22:06] <fijal> I don't see it any more powerful than I would expect vi/emacs to be
[22:06] <lucian> fijal: it has better code completion & project support than vim
[22:06] <lucian> fijal: haven't used emacs much, but i never seem to be able to get it to do what i want
[22:07] <fijal> emacs has pretty decent code completion
[22:07] <fijal> for code completion completely not understanding language, that is
[22:08] <lucian> fijal: oh. komodo is way better than that
[22:08] <lucian> fijal: editra has decent code completion too
[22:08] <fijal> ugh
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[22:09] <fijal> sabi: that does not support anti-aliasing
[22:09] <fijal> !!!
[22:10] <lucian> fijal: editra? for me it's the other way around, i can't turn the AA down
[22:10] <fijal> no, the pycharm thingie
[22:10] <lucian> fijal: it's wxWidgets, it has various AA issues
[22:10] <lucian> fijal: ah
[22:10] <lucian> i hate pycharm
[22:10] <lucian> well, hate is a strong word
[22:10] <lucian> but i don't like it at all
[22:11] <fijal> heh
[22:11] <fijal> "run garbage collector" as a button is almost never a good idea
[22:12] <lucian> fijal: it's a workaround, so yeah
[22:12] <lucian> fijal: at least better than eclipse eating 600+MB
[22:12] <fijal> I don't care, RAM is cheap
[22:13] <lucian> fijal: meh, not THAT cheap
[22:13] <lucian> fijal: btw, i should probably get myself another 2GB ram
[22:13] <fijal> UI looks like emacs in 90s
[22:15] <lucian> fijal: you mean emacs period
[22:15] <fijal> lucian: ?
[22:15] <lucian> fijal: has the emacs ui changed at all since the 90s?
[22:15] <fijal> yeah
[22:15] <lucian> fijal: was it WORSE? how?
[22:15] <fijal> mine support anti-aliasing
[22:15] <fijal> for example
[22:16] <lucian> fijal: well, that's a given. i guess
[22:16] <fijal> nope
[22:16] <fijal> it was not in 90s at least
[22:17] <lucian> fijal: i still don't thing aa is a UI feature, at least not nowadays
[22:17] <fijal> depends
[22:17] <fijal> if you use underlaying stuff like GTK it's not
[22:17] <fijal> if you use some crap like direct-X
[22:17] <fijal> it is
[22:18] <lucian> fijal: crap vs mediocre toolkit
[22:18] <lucian> fijal: anyway, not having aa is silly
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